Fish and Billingsgate Dock

November 4, 2019, 9:49 pm

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GREENWICH, FISH AND BILLINGSGATE DOCK

by BARBARA LUDLOW

Fishing in the River Thames was part of everyday life for its riverside communities, as can be testified by the many 'manor ways' leading from towns and villages to the banks of the river. Subsistence fishing was soon in competition with commercial enterprise and as early as the twelfth century powerful landowners placed 'kidels' across the Thames, to the detriment of private fishermen. In 1197 the City of London, on purchasing the Crown's Thames fishing rights, stipulated "that all kidels that are in the Thames shall be removed"

As the population of the metropolis and its environs grew the Thames, described in the reign of Henry II as being full of fish, could not supply the amount or variety fish required by the market.The British had been catching off-shore cod since Roman times but in the late fourteenth century adventurous fishermen from various ports sailed into Icelandic waters. So far no records have been found to prove that Greenwich fishermen went to Iceland that early but there is evidence to show how important the industry had become in the town at that time

About 1560 twenty-two sites on the Thames were designated on the banks of the Thames for various merchandise and raw materials. The quay at Billingsgate in the City was given over to fish, salt, corn and fruit. It would be convenient to state that Billingsgate Dock in Greenwich became associated with fish at the same time but sadly there is no proof of this. However, situated in the heart of the town Greenwich's Billingsgate had become a centre for shipping. The first known written reference to the Dock is in royal building accounts of l449. A price was quoted for conveying materials from Billingsgate Dock to 'Bella Vista', Margaret of Anjou's house by the river. This was later demolished and the Tudor Palace of Greenwich built on its site

It must be presumed that the early Billingsgate Dock accommodated fishing smacks but it was not the only quay used by fishermen. Fisher Lane/Alley ran close to the river between Greenwich Church Street and the perimeter of the Greenwich Hospital for Seamen, later the Royal Naval College and now housing part of the University of Greenwich. Ship Dock and Ship Stairs at the eastern end of Fisher Lane were used by the fishing fraternity and this small area of Greenwich near the river became a fish market before 1700. The early 1700s Greenwich fishermen were allowed to sell in the newly established Charter market. This was later abolished to make way for the Greenwich Hospital Infirmary of 1764, subsequently the Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital. Albeit old habits die hard and the fishermen went on selling their catches at Ship Dock until it, Ship Stairs and most of Fisher Lane disappeared under the Greenwich Hospital Improvement Acts of 1830-1850. In lieu of this Billingsgate Dock was enlarged

The enlarging of the dock took place around the time when the Greenwich 'fishing fleet' was on the wane. It was not steam trawlers which set this in motion but the formation of the Great Grimsby Dock Company (1845) and the quick development of the railway between London and the eastern counties. The Eastern Counties Railway of 1836 started the ball rolling and by 1845 the Great Central Railway was transporting fish from Grimsby to London.

Attempts were made to help the fishermen of Greenwich and the Fishermen's Provident Annuity Society was founded in 1636. Thomas Norledge of Greenwich became an official of the new Great Grimsby Dock Company and James Meadows of Greenwich was based in Grimsby as an agent for the Greenwich fishers. After the 1860s fewer and fewer fishing smacks left Greenwich for Icelandic waters and the rich fishing grounds of the North- Sea. After about 1870 the steam trawlers of Grimsby were taking over the trade and a large number of fishermen and their families left Greenwich and Barking to settle in Grimsby and Lowestoft.

New markets and new inventions killed off the Greenwich deep-sea fishing industry, ironically just as the demand for fresh fish exploded with the opening of a great number of fish and chip shops. In 1893 Dickens's 'Dictionary of the Thames' recorded that "many of the fishermen have left the river for other more profitable pursuits and there has scarcely been a youth apprenticed to the calling of fisherman for the last few years".

The industrial life of Billingsgate Dock cannot be resurrected. However, perhaps an historical time-chart with illustrations could be erected adjacent to the Dock and a short pamphlet outlining its history made available at Greenwich Tourist Office now housed in Pepys House, Cutty Sark Gardens

This ariticle appeared in the GIHS Newsletter in November 2000

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Letters November 2000

November 4, 2019, 10:06 pm

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LETTERS

Letters from November 2000

From Thomas Wilde

I have an ancestor who owned property in Deptford at the end of the 18^th century. John Wild (1724-1800) High Constable of Holborn who purchased, in 1792, a freehold property known as the Tidemill Estate in Deptford. It comprised three messuages and a dock, rented at £50 a year. The title deeds commence on 25^thJune 1717. After John's death, for about five years, his estate was administered by his nephew, Thomas Wilde who had an office – I believe – at Deptford Bridge. Thomas was an attorney in the City of London. I like to think of him going up and down the river like Pepys in the previous century. After 1805 the estate was placed in the hands of Masters of Chancery who controlled it until the heirs of John Wild came of age.c.1818. Finally, the Tide Mill was sold in 1827.

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From Paul Cannon

I am looking for information on the East Greenwich Gas Works. The reason for this is not only a genuine interest in coal manufactured gas plants, but I am doing a project on the decline of the works at Greenwich and at Beckton.

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From F.A.Gilbert-Bentley

Re.My letter in Vol.1. Issue 3. August 1999. The film at the Premier Cinema, Woolwich, in October 1940 which was interrupted by the Luftwaffe was David Livingstone – a black and white film. For a brief moment the screen having departed in the blast, the picture flashed on to an outside wall.

Mr. Gilbert Bentley wrote to us last year to tell us how he was bombed out of a Woolwich cinema in the war.

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From Pat 0'Driscoll

With regard to the short article 'Billingsgate - Greenwich's ancient harbour" in "Greenwich Industrial History, Vol. 3 No. 4. What probably drove the Greenwich smacks away to Grimsby was increasing pollution of the Thames. Many smacks were fitted with a "well" between two watertight bulkheads in which fish, caught by a hand line, could be kept alive until the vessel returned to market the catch. Holes bored in the vessel in the area of the well ensured a constant circulation of seawater. An illustration showing a well can be seen on p 87 of Harvey Benham's book 'The Codbangers' which also shows how Grimsby became a major fishing centre, helped by a rail link to London established in 1848. Four years later the Royal Dock, Grimsby, was opened and fishermen were offered attractive terms to move there.

While many smacks fished the North Sea grounds, a number went as far as Iceland after cod. The first successful steam trawler was the Zodiac of 1880-1. Hewett & Co of Barking had steam cutters from 1865 onward, designed to collect boxes of fish from craft fishing as a fleet and running them to Billingsgate Fish Market (to Shadwell Market from the mid-1880 to 1900). They were fitted with trawling gear so that they could trawl at suitable times. Because of this they escaped Thames River Dues - another reason for steam fish carriers to have a secondary role as trawlers

Unfortunately Greenwich's fishing fleet came and went with little or nothing being recorded about it.

Pat O'Driscoll is late of Fishing News – a weekly paper of British commercial fishermen since 1913.

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From Vernon Broom

On reading the article 'Two Vanished Greenwich Pubs' in Bygone Kent I thought I had come across the name Star in the East somewhere before. As I am not familiar with that part of Greenwich I wondered if it was connected with my transport interests. On looking through my small collection of bus tickets I found printed on a route 108 ticket 'Tunnel Avenue Star in the East' (Route 108 ran from Crystal Palace through Blackwall Tunnel to Bromley High Street 'Seven Sisters'). These Bell Punch tickets, known as Geographical tickets had all the Fare Stages printed on them and were used until early 1952. I am not sure of the exact date of my ticket but I think it is from about this time presumably the Star in the East was still operating as a pub at this time.

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From John Day

Re: letter from Niclas Dahlvang in the last issue. There is a paper on 'The Steam Gun' in Volume 11 (1999) of The Ordnance Society's Journal. This tells the story of the Perkins gun and has pictures of it. One of the illustrations comes from an article in 'The Engineer' Vol.12, p. 390, (December 27th. 1861). There is also a limited edition (200 copies) biography 'Jacob Perkins' by G. and D. Bathe, published by The Historical Society of Pennsylvania in 1943. How do I know - I wrote the paper, and I have Vol. 12 of 'The Engineer' and copy No. 196 of the book!

As to the Blackwall Tunnel, there was a paper read before the Society of Arts on May 13th. 1896, entitled "Tunnelling by Compressed Air" by E.W.Moir, who was entrusted with the design of the plant and the carrying out of the work by the contractors for the Blackwall Tunnel. This was reprinted in '' The Practical Engineer' Vol XIII pp 639-641, 661-663 and Vol. XIV pp 18-20. About half of the paper is devoted to Blackwall and has drawings of the Paterson shield, shaft No. 3, an air lock and a longitudinal section.

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From Stewart Borrett

Re: Correspondence on the Swanage Globe, letter from Bill Firth which asked what proof there was that the Globe was made in Greenwich.

I discussed this matter with David Hayson the curator of the Museum at Swanage and we both think that there is no doubt that the Globe was made in Greenwich. I don't think that there is any written evidence to support this, it may have just been stated and passed down.

However, the common sense part of it would tell us that this was the case. The Purbeck stone was down in Swanage, it was shipped to London. George Burt was developing his Durlston Park Estate of which The Castle and the Globe were part. The main reason why I think it was made in Greenwich was that it would have been a skilled operation to out it together and the expertise was in Greenwich and not with the stonemasons down there who were more used to dressing building stone rather than making something of this complexity. Also George Burt could inspect it himself up there as it was being put together, he spent most of his working time in London.

I think for these reasons it was made in London. There is a photo of it being made on the front of Curiosities of Swanage, a booklet. I hope this might be of some help.

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From Peter Jones

I run a small company specialising in the care and upgrading of automatic machines, we have recently converted a gun barrel lapping machine for a company called Boss & Co. They have hand built double-barrelled shotguns in London for, I believe, around 200 years. Until recently they had works in Bermondsey, they have recently moved to 'under the shop' in Mayfair and we delivered the upgraded machine last week.

The main reason for this letter is the motor fitted to the machine we rebuilt, which we have replaced. It is rated at 1 HP, is wound for 400v. ac (although it has survived on 415v ac for many years) and I would estimate it was manufactured in the 1920s-1930s although I have no way of knowing its age. It still runs perfectly. I have possession of the motor, before I send it to the scrapyard – is of interest to your group?

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From Audrey Walker

Three generations of my Smith family were barge builders on the Thames and I think it possible that they worked for Stratford & Co., as I have a pencil stub with that name on it and 'Barge Owners & Repairers of ...... and Andrews Wharves, Woolwich, S.E.9. I expect the company has long since disappeared but is it likely that records still exist? Do you know the name of the wharf - that part of the pencil had been used?

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From Alan Lea

Merryweathers - I suspect that this won't be the first or the last time that an enquiry has been made about the once world renowned company, having recently purchased a Hatfield trailer pump manufactured in 1935 with the view to restoration, I am now searching for any info that may help me?

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From Tim Smith

Re: your request for information about Greenwich steam engines. Merryweather products in Museums:

1. Horse drawn Fire Engine. Owned by John Player & Sons of Clydach, 6 miles north of Swansea from c. mid-19th. Last used in 1912. It is now in the Swansea Maritime Industrial Museum.

2. Steam Tram Engine. No.RSTM2 of the Rijnlandsche Stoomtramweg-Maatschappji, Built by Merryweather in 1881 (works No.110?). Weight 8.5 tons speed 25 km/h; 10kg/sq.cm boiler pressure. Standard gauge with a horizontal boiler. Preserved at the Netherlands Railway Museum in Utrecht.

I am sure there must be many more!

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From John Furlong

I am looking for details of the Greenwich Reach development site, for which EC Harris are Project Managers. Site clearance and demolitions will be getting under way soon at the Greenwich Reach site, prior to construction works starting next year, and I have been asked to research old businesses and their buildings on the site that have previously been demolished - in particular ones which may impact on our works schedule.

I believe we are fairly well up to speed on the Phoenix Gas Works and its gasholders, however more recent businesses seem to be less well documented. For example, I have so far failed to find details of Petwain Ltd which occupied Dreadnought Wharf or Robinsons Metals at Dowells Wharf. What buildings did they occupy and when were they demolished?.

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From Frank Lockhart

We have an original Festival of Britain sign at the Woolwich Ferry where I work. Fred Peskett, Chairman of the Festival of Britain Society, found two of them in Salisbury some ten years ago. He restored the other one and it looks like I shall have to make a replica of this one as it is quite badly decayed and to restore it would take away too much originality. If you would like to see it or the copy when done, please feel free to let me know. When the replica is made, can you think of a use for it, perhaps a local museum display next year?

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From Russell Martin

In the latter years of the 17th century the Bowater family had extensive land holdings in Woolwich. The family home was on a hill to the south of the town called Mount Pleasant - later known Bowater House With the arrival of the army family home was acquired as the Officers Mess at the Red Barracks.

In 1692 the Bowater Estate extended from the edge of The Warren in the east along the river bank to Charlton with a southern border just short of Woolwich Common. Towards the river the Bowater Estate owned the Sand Pits, later used for Dockyard Railway Station. On the riverside they had a boat building yard - part of which was purchased by a gentleman by the name of Samuel Pepys Esq. for the use of his Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy. In 1784 the Navy purchased a further 600 acres for The Mast Pond.

My Great Great Grandmother was the natural daughter of John Bowater (d.1810) named of Georgina Mercote (1797-1865) . In 1815 she married Joseph Harrington, a Solicitor, of Rectory Place Woolwich. They lived at Glen Mohr Cottage, Lower Road - today the site of the school opposite Maryon Road - their garden became the Warspite Industrial Estate.

I have a map which shows the development of the Warspite Industrial Estate. Some of the documents comment on the Siemens Bothers factory - in which they wanted to make electric light bulbs - but it was thought that there would not he much demand for that type of thing! Also a Mr Slazenger rented factory land to make tennis balls. The Standard Telegraph Cable Co., was also viewed with suspicion - it was thought that nobody would ever want to talk on a thing called the telephone to America.

In 1803 after various troubles The Bowater Estate was put in Chancery and there followed a multitude of Litigations - even in those days the Lawyers tried to keep the pot boiling to ensure their constant income! In 1895 a survey was done of all the property owned by The Trust. This foolscap size book contains 70 pages and 38 maps at a scale of about 30 ins = 1 mile (but no actual scale is quoted). These maps detail of every single property in Woolwich with data as to what the premises were being used for and the rents due to The Estate - some of them as little as £8.0s 0d pa.

I am trying to obtain a copy of Milton's Plan of Woolwich Dockyard published in 1753 and wonder if any of your members could help? I also have a photograph of 'A View of Woolwich surveyed by John Barker in 1748'. Are any of your members aware of the current whereabouts of this plan and where can I get a copy from? Also, the location of the plan shown on page 60 of Vincent's history.

If some of your members are interested I would be prepared to come over to Blackheath one evening and show them some of the original maps and documents that I have been able to collect over the years.

I am involved at the old gunpowder works at Waltham Abbey. Production of 'gunpowder' (cordite) ceased towards the end of the Second World War and the site was used as a research establishment for Rocket Propellants until it was finally closed down in 1989. They are now creating a Heritage Centre on the site. Perhaps some of your members would be interested in visiting the site next summer.

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From Andrew Hollings

re: Appleby Bros, steam engine manufacturers of Southwark & Greenwich. I am presently researching the origin of a large Victorian era steam capstan winch used to haul ships out of the water on a inclined marine railway called a "patent slipway". The winch was a piece of Victorian ingenuity with twin 25hp horizontal steam driven engines. Power was transferred through a massive 7 gear gearbox which allowed the slipping of 4000 ton ships onto the inclined marine railway.

I am presently trying to reconstruct the winch machine but do not have the original drawings to replicate missing parts.I wonder if you could help me locate the archives and then the drawings of the manufacturer? My winch was built circa 1860 by Appleby Brothers. Appleby Brothers formed various buisness arrangements with steam engine component manufacturers including a specialist steam bore and a crane company. They became Jessop and Appleby of london and Leicester. They then returned to the name of Applebys after about 1914. My searching to date has yielded the scantiest details. I do not have access to many searching sources in New Zealand

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Reviews and snippets November 2000

November 4, 2019, 10:32 pm

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Reviews and snippets November 2000

CROSSNESS NEWS

Crossness Engines Record gives details of what they describe as a 'Thames Water Event'. This is the opening of the new section of the Thames River Path along the riverfront – basically an extension of the riverside path from Greenwich into Bexley and on to Erith. The event was held on 20th September with guests of honour, former MP, Edwina Currie and John Austin MP. Other guests were there from SUSTRANS – plus a historic bicycle exhibition – and the Prince's Trust. There is an interpretation board and a viewing platform – so walk on from Greenwich and have a look!
Crossness is expanding its Board of Trustees and has invited Jennie Page to join. They also have Simon Jenkins, Joanna Lumley and Lucinda Lampton as Vice-Presidents.
The Trust has also acquired some wonderful prints and paintings – now held in their library. This includes a coloured plan of the WHOLE of the Arsenal.

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New Book -Iron Shipbuilding on the Thames 1832-1915. By A.J.Arnold.

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Visions of Greenwich Reach (A Homage to the Working Thames) by Terry Scales. A selection of his collection of paintings of the river Thames on his doorstep. Images interspersed with extracts from his diaries.

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BLACKHEATH GUIDE

Neil Rhind wrote, in the October 2000 edition about the Blackheath Art Club. Who would have thought that all those amazing wartime films – Night Mail – Western Approaches – were made in Blackheath at what was then the GPO film Unit? Great Stuff!

Peter Kent continues in the same edition with 'Tales of the River Banks' which details changes along the Ravensbourne/Deptford Creek. All the way from the DLR Station in Lewisham to Convoys.

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NEW MOSAIC

An amazing new Mosaic was opened in Kingsman Square in Woolwich on 7th September by Nick Raynsford MP. It shows the launch of HMS Trafalgar in 1857 at Woolwich, as well as other Dockyard scenes. The work was done by local children under the watchful eye of Greenwich Mural Workshop.
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Thames Shipbuilding Study Group.

In early September a Symposium on Thames Shipbuilding was held in Rotherhithe, organised by Stuart Rankin of the Rotherhithe and Bermondsey Local History Group and sponsored by the National Maritime Museum and Greenwich Maritime Institute. In the comfort of Nelson House (ex Nelson Dock and now part of the Hotel Complex) delegates heard a number of papers on subjects all (obviously) connected with Thames Shipbuilding . Those attending included representatives of the Museum in Docklands, Museum of London Archaeology Service as well as Professors Tony Arnold,
Univ. Essex and Andrew Lambert, Kings College.

Conference Proceedings - Shipbuilding on the Thames and Thames Built Ships. ed. Stuart Rankin. is published as a limited edition of 100 copies. A ground breaking publication it contains article as follows: 'The Brent Family of Shipbuilders' (Capt Brent Streit), 'Apprentice at Mills & Knight, Nelson Dock' (Bryan Cumings), 'Review of Recent Work on the Archaeology of Ship and Boat Building on the Thames' (Damien Goodburn), Shipbuilding at East Greenwich (Mary Mills), 'Castles – Shipbuilders and Breakers' (Robert & Linda Tait), 'Naval Shipbuilding on the 18th Century Thames (Rif Winfield), 'The First Post Office Steam Packets Built at Rotherhithe' (Roger Owen), 'Shipwrights – from craft guild to trade union' (Stuart Rankin), 'The Failure of Millwall Ironworks and Overend Gurney' (Tony Arnold, 'The Millwall Ironworks Site' (Edward Sargent), 'The Lower Thames Shipyards' (John Basley), ' A Brief History of the East India Company site in Poplar', (Tony Fuller)
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TICCIH VISIT

In early September The International Committee for the Conservation of the Industrial Heritage visited Greenwich as part of a week-long Conference and tour. A group of Society members – helped by a party of Greenwich Tour Guides – met the party with a view to showing them industrial Greenwich. It rained .. and it rained.. and it rained. One group came a short distance and four people (out of 250) walked down the riverside.

Well we tried! But the rain beat us. All delegates got copies of literature provided by the Council (thank you Janice) and English Partnerships (thank you Kay). Hopefully one day they will come back when it's drier!

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GREENWICH GLASS HOUSE

In 1641 there was a glass house at Greenwich owned by Jeremy Bago and Francis Bristow. This glass house contravened Sir Robert Mansel's monopoly and they were ordered to close down, but defied this order and continued working until the House of Lords caught up with them and they were jailed in 1642. John Evelyn, a diarist, states that in June 1673 he "went with friends to the formal and formidable camp at Blackheath and thence to the Italian glass-house at Greenwich, where glass was blown of finer mettal than that of Murano at Venice". At that stage the glass house was probably still owned by the Duke of Buckingham, who had a patent for making crystal glass in 1663 for the period of fourteen years. It is probable that this patent ran most of its course. Jeremy Bago had married Susanna Henzey (from a well-established glass making family) in Oldswinford in 1619 and he had returned there by 1650. Francis Bristow had been involved in a range of different glass houses, including one in Coventry in 1621. Greenwich was not mentioned by Houghton in his list of glass houses in 1696, so it probably closed in the 1670s when it could not compete with the new 'flint' glass.
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LEWISHAM TRAMS

The current edition of 'Archive' includes an article by Patrick Loobey on 'Lewisham's First Electric Trams'– of course, Lewisham trams ran to Greenwich!

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RENEWAL, REGENERATION AND RENAISSANCE.

Kate Jones has sent a cutting from the August/September edition of Axis which describes part of the Berkeley Homes development planned for Woolwich Arsenal by their Regeneration Director, Joanne Lucas. The article talks about the need for a 'joined up approach' which 'encapsulates the three Rs'– 'sustainable and holistic regeneration'.

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FROM ANOTHER WEB SITE

– this is about the site right opposite the Dome on the other side of the river

Roxane, the First Lady of Virginia Comes to Town . Virginia's First Lady Roxane Gilmore, Honorary co-chair of the 'Celebration 2007' steering committee, and Wife of Virginian Governor James Gilmore III, paid a flying visit to East London on Saturday morning October 1st. 2000 accompanied by Patricia Cornwell, best selling author, with the object of seeing Blackwall at low tide. It meant an early start but jet-lag didn't bother these intrepid visitors with a special mission, the group also included Charlie Cornwell, Patricia's business manager, Dr. William Kelso, leader of the APVA Jamestown excavation team, accompanied by his wife Mrs Kelso, and Jeanne Bailles a previous First Lady, all had flown over from Virginia the previous day for a long weekend of history research in Docklands, they also visited the newly restored First Settlers Monument at 'Virginia Quay', and, on the following Monday, the British Museum in Docklands.

The VIP's arrived in two limo's with their security escorts, eager and ready to scale any obstacles to glimpse historic Blackwall at low tide, they certainly managed that with no stragglers too, the First Lady Roxane is an experienced archaeologist and works with the APVA team in Virginia, all are capable in tackling the various terrain conditions.

The 'LEA Heritage Group' (re-discovering history) although given very short notice, were able to provide an adequate tour for these important visitors from the USA. Ian Sharpe their Chair said "it was an honour to be chosen to escort such notable visitors .. we were fortunate to have Rosemary Taylor, the Author, who is also an experienced tour guide, and David Clark Secretary was a great host, inviting them to his home nearby for tea served by his charming Philippine's wife Celia". It was a very informal pleasant meeting

An interesting and enjoyable experience for us all, it went very well to further cement Anglo American relations, we share a mutual history at Blackwall, and their visit to the newly restored 'First Settlers Monument' at 'Virginia Quay' by kind permission of the developers 'Barratts' showed how important this mutual history is, we all returned to the 'Gun Pub' in Coldharbour Lane for a well earned drink of fine English beer and a good chat about the future.

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PORTCITIES PROJECT

It is understood that the National Maritime Museum – working with Goldsmiths – has received money to develop research links in this way. A working group has been set up on Deptford and they are anxious to create links.

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THE WOOLWICH KILN

– note from Mike Neill

At last the Woolwich Kiln has been unwrapped – it was wrapped up for 25 years and we were all waiting to see what awful things has happened to it – complete collapse – smothered by root growth – reduced to powder?. Mike Neill reports:

The kiln is in remarkably good condition; no collapse or cracking, no root growth, just a tiny robin's nest. The wetting it received in 1990 prior to being moved has also exposed an unexcavated salt-glazed waster on the kiln floor, and an interesting piece of clinker-like material which may be spent fuel. The platform around the kiln is scaffolding, access via a 3m ladder. I would be happy to conduct anyone who is really, really interested in seeing it - but given the safety issues, we would need to consider general fitness and suitable site clothing would be a must. Very small groups. The possibilities of accidents with visitors to the Arsenal always worries me!

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MEETING WITH ENGLISH HERITAGE - GREENWICH SITES AND MONUMENTS

One morning in October a group of GIHS members met with David Eve, who is currently 'in charge' of the Sites and Monuments Record. It was agreed that David would supply us with details of what was required and that then – working as a number of teams – we would send lists of sites in to him. Further details in due course.

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WHITE HART DEPOT

News from the Borough is that discussions are under way with a film company who may decide to use the amazing buildings of the old generator station and depot as studios – to produce a soap opera!

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FALKLANDS ISLAND STAMPS AND GREENWICH

On the Falklands Islands post office web site can be noted their issue of commemorative stamps. These include on the 9p – a picture of a Merryweather & Son, Greenwich Gem. This was a steam driven Fire engine and which started service with the Brigade in 1898. Described by the manufacturers as "the new Patent Double Cylinder Vertical Steam Fire Engine" it's arrival in Port Stanley heralded the beginning of the Fire Service.

Another is on the 17p which shows Merryweather's Hatfield Trailer Pump. A petrol driven "Hatfield" Trailer pump and Foamite "Firefoam" chemical engine Model D was brought into service in 1928.

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GREENWICH POWER STATION

GLIAS Journal with Peter Guillery's article on Greenwich Power Station - the article is fundamentally a recording plus architectural assessment and includes some stunning interior pictures. Other articles concern Carter Paterson's depot in Camberwell, a gelatin manufacturer in Bermondsey, Mill machinery at the House Mill at Bromley by Bow and the first railway terminus at Kings Cross – and more amazing pictures of ship repair machinery from the North Woolwich area in the 1980s.

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GREENWICH MARITIME INSTITUTE

We have received the second annual report of this important new local instution. They now run two taught Mas in Maritime History and in Maritime Policy. have an active visiting lecturers series and Honorary Research Fellows. Professor Sarah Palmer gave her inaugural lecture in May on 'Seeing the Sea. The Maritime Dimension in History' and has chaired a conference on 'Seapower in the Millennium'. In June the Institute hosted a private view of drawings of the Thames Riverscape by Peter Kent – and helped with the symposium on Thames Shipbuilding (reported elsewhere). t'. This is the opening of the new section of the Thames River Path along the riverfront – basically an extension of the riverside path from Greenwich into Bexley and on to Erith. The event was held on 20th September with guests of honour, former MP, Edwina Currie and John Austin MP. Other guests were there from SUSTRANS – plus a historic bicycle exhibition – and the Prince's Trust. There is an interpretation board and a viewing platform – so walk on from Greenwich and have a look!

These items appreared in the GIHS Newsetter in November 2000

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Reports and Snippets November 2000

November 5, 2019, 1:29 am

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≪ Previous: Reviews and snippets November 2000

Reports and Snippets November 2000

CROSSNESS NEWS

Crossness is expanding its Board of Trustees and has invited Jennie Page to join. They also have Simon Jenkins, Joanna Lumley and Lucinda Lampton as Vice-Presidents.

The Trust has also acquired some wonderful prints and paintings – now held in their library. This includes a coloured plan of the WHOLE of the Arsenal.

NEW BOOKS

Iron Shipbuilding on the Thames 1832-1915. By A.J.Arnold.

Visions of Greenwich Reach (A Homage to the Working Thames) by Terry Scales. A selection of his collection of paintings of the river Thames on his doorstep. Images interspersed with extracts from his diaries.

BLACKHEATH GUIDE

Peter Kent continues in the same edition with 'Tales of the River Banks' which details changes along the Ravensbourne/Deptford Creek. All the way from the DLR Station in Lewisham to Convoys.

NEW MOSAIC

An amazing new Mosaic was opened in Kingsman Square in Woolwich on 7^th September by Nick Raynsford MP. It shows the launch of HMS Trafalgar in 1857 at Woolwich, as well as other Dockyard scenes. The work was done by local children under the watchful eye of Greenwich Mural Workshop.

THAMES SHIPBUILDING STUDY GROUP
In early September a Symposium on Thames Shipbuilding was held in Rotherhithe, organised by Stuart Rankin of the Rotherhithe and Bermondsey Local History Group and sponsored by the National Maritime Museum and Greenwich Maritime Institute. In the comfort of Nelson House (ex Nelson Dock and now part of the Hotel Complex) delegates heard a number of papers on subjects all (obviously) connected with Thames Shipbuilding . Those attending included representatives of the Museum in Docklands, Museum of London Archaeology Service as well as Professors Tony Arnold, Univ. Essex and Andrew Lambert, Kings College.

Conference Proceedings - Shipbuilding on the Thames and Thames Built Ships. ed. Stuart Rankin. is published as a limited edition of 100 copies. A ground breaking publication it contains article as follows: 'The Brent Family of Shipbuilders' (Capt Brent Streit), 'Apprentice at Mills & Knight, Nelson Dock' (Bryan Cumings), 'Review of Recent Work on the Archaeology of Ship and Boat Building on the Thames' (Damien Goodburn), Shipbuilding at East Greenwich (Mary Mills), 'Castles – Shipbuilders and Breakers' (Robert & Linda Tait), 'Naval Shipbuilding on the 18^th Century Thames (Rif Winfield), 'The First Post Office Steam Packets Built at Rotherhithe' (Roger Owen), 'Shipwrights – from craft guild to trade union' (Stuart Rankin), 'The Failure of Millwall Ironworks and Overend Gurney' (Tony Arnold, 'The Millwall Ironworks Site' (Edward Sargent), 'The Lower Thames Shipyards' (John Basley), ' A Brief History of the East India Company site in Poplar', (Tony Fuller) Copies £7.50. Copies will be only be available from a bookshop in Greenwich.

TICCIH VISIT

In early September The International Committee for the Conservation of the Industrial Heritage visited Greenwich as part of a week-long Conference and tour. (Please see News Shopper for 6^thSeptember). A group of Society members – helped by a party of Greenwich Tour Guides – met the party with a view to showing them industrial Greenwich. It rained .. and it rained.. and it rained. One group came a short distance and four people (out of 250) walked down the riverside.

GREENWICH GLASS HOUSE

In 1641 there was a glass house at Greenwich owned by Jeremy Bago and Francis Bristow. This glass house contravened Sir Robert Mansel's monopoly and they were ordered to close down, but defied this order and continued working until the House of Lords caught up with them and they were jailed in 1642. John Evelyn, a diarist, states that in June 1673 he "went with friends to the formal and formidable camp at Blackheath and thence to the Italian glass-house at Greenwich, where glass was blown of finer mettal than that of Murano at Venice". At that stage the glass house was probably still owned by the Duke of Buckingham, who had a patent for making crystal glass in 1663 for the period of fourteen years. It is probable that this patent ran most of its course. Jeremy Bago had married Susanna Henzey (from a well-established glass making family) in Oldswinford in 1619 and he had returned there by 1650. Francis Bristow had been involved in a range of different glass houses, including one in Coventry in 1621. Greenwich was not mentioned by Houghton in his list of glass houses in 1696, so it probably closed in the 1670s when it could not compete with the new 'flint' glass.

LEWISHAM TRAMS

The current edition of 'Archive'includes an article by Patrick Loobey on 'Lewisham's First Electric Trams'– of course, Lewisham trams ran to Greenwich!

RENEWAL, REGENERATION AND RENAISSANCE.

Kate Jones has sent a cutting from the August/September edition of Axis which describes part of the Berkeley Homes development planned for Woolwich Arsenal by their Regeneration Director, Joanne Lucas. The article talks about the need for a 'joined up approach' which 'encapsulates the three Rs'– 'sustainable and holistic regeneration'.

FROM ANOTHER WEB SITE–

this is about the site right opposite the Dome on the other side of the river

Roxane, the First Lady of Virginia Comes to Town . Virginia's First Lady Roxane Gilmore, Honorary co-chair of the 'Celebration 2007' steering committee, and Wife of Virginian Governor James Gilmore III, paid a flying visit to East London on Saturday morning October 1st. 2000 accompanied by Patricia Cornwell, best selling author, with the object of seeing Blackwall at low tide. It meant an early start but jet-lag didn't bother these intrepid visitors with a special mission, the group also included Charlie Cornwell, Patricia's business manager, Dr. William Kelso, leader of the APVA Jamestown excavation team, accompanied by his wife Mrs Kelso, and Jeanne Bailles a previous First Lady, all had flown over from Virginia the previous day for a long weekend of history research in Docklands, they also visited the newly restored First Settlers Monument at 'Virginia Quay', and, on the following Monday, the British Museum in Docklands.

The VIP's arrived in two limo's with their security escorts, eager and ready to scale any obstacles to glimpse historic Blackwall at low tide, they certainly managed that with no stragglers too, the First Lady Roxane is an experienced archaeologist and works with the APVA team in Virginia, all are capable in tackling the various terrain conditions.

The 'LEA Heritage Group' (re-discovering history) although given very short notice, were able to provide an adequate tour for these important visitors from the USA. Ian Sharpe their Chair said "it was an honour to be chosen to escort such notable visitors .. we were fortunate to have Rosemary Taylor, the Author, who is also an experienced tour guide, and David Clark Secretary was a great host, inviting them to his home nearby for tea served by his charming Philippine's wife Celia". It was a very informal pleasant meeting

An interesting and enjoyable experience for us all, it went very well to further cement Anglo American relations, we share a mutual history at Blackwall, and their visit to the newly restored 'First Settlers Monument' at 'Virginia Quay' by kind permission of the developers 'Barratts' showed how important this mutual history is, we all returned to the 'Gun Pub' in Coldharbour Lane for a well earned drink of fine English beer and a good chat about the future.

PORTCITIES PROJECT

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New Heritage Centre

November 5, 2019, 1:37 am

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VISIT TO THE SITE OF THE NEW GREENWICH

HERITAGE CENTRE

by Jack Vaughan

this account dates from November 2000 before the centre has closed. Now, in November 2019, it has been closed and not replaced - Greenwich now, scandalously, has no museum or archive

A visit was arranged, attended by a good number of members, to the Royal Arsenal (West), its purpose being to show the Society the first stage of the Council's share of what will be a Museum/Heritage Centre.

The Party assembled at the Beresford Square end of Warren Lane (in former days the 'Arsenal' area was known as the Warren). There it was met by Mike Neill of Greenwich Borough at the entrance to the Main Guard House (1788 Grade II) now occupied by English Partnerships. Kitted out with compulsory fancy dress now obligatory on construction sites – yellow waist coast with decorations and 'Snowdrop' helmets (as worn by the American Military Police in the last war) the party moved across Dial Square to the front block. There were three of these blocks forming the Great Pile of Buildings (1716). The Sundial was added because of the unreliability of the first 'Arsenal' clock on the adjacent Royal Laboratories of which two 'partitions' remain.

The contents of the 'room' (30ft by 15ft, my guess) were mainly photographic and pictorial, illustrative of Arsenal scenes and activities – and extremely interesting display.

A television was running a video which was quite rivetting and there was a cabinet containing small artefacts which I am sure will form the nucleus of an expanding display of such items. At this point, the great number of 'finds' uncovered by the Oxford Archaeological Grouo will be ensconced and catalogued. The Society, Council and Borough Museum must ensure that they eventually return to a final resting place on the Arsenal site or in the Heritage Centre.

Leaving Dial Square the party walked to a building which Mike said had been a bullet factory. I admit to some confusion here: the bullet factory was on the adjacent site of the Royal Laboratories which was roofed over and packed out with bullet presses, trimmers, etc. Also the building which we were exploring was next to No.17 building which was the paper cartridge factory in the mid 1800s.

Anyway, 'our' building had plenty of interesting construction features including fine cast iron roof supporting pillars which, ingeniously, served as part of the roof drainage arrangements. The third and last part of the tour was a walk towards the eastern end of the site which gave the members sight of several listed buildings including the Grand Storehouses, Armstrong Gun Factory, the two pretty Riverside Guardhouses and the spectacular entrance to the Shell Factory (1850). A notable absentee was His Grace the Duke of Wellington MGO (statue) banished to some obscure corner. Mike could not say just where, but avowed that it would not be lost from the Arsenal site. We must all cross our fingers as other important items have disappeared.

The highlight of the visit for myself was to see three enormous cast iron (or steel) bases which were part of steam hammers housed in the forges near the Armstrong factory. They are to remain on site, presumably as 'ornaments' in the small 'park' behind the Shell Factory – already mentioned. The 40 ton Nasmyth hammer was not recovered and presumably was removed around 1950. The 30' deep foundations are still underground.

Altogether a worthwhile tour – hopefully the first of a coming series so that the growth of the whole Heritage Centre can be followed as it happens.

WHERE THE NEW HERITAGE CENTRE WILL BE –

41 & 41A New Laboratory Square

Built as part of the Royal Laboratory, the ammunition manufacturing branch of the Arsenal.

The West Range, of 1805, was the first, followed c. 1808-10 by the very similar east range; the yard being enclosed to the north about the same time. All three ranges are of two storeys, of stock brick, with minimal stone dressings. The east and west ranges have their five central bays pedimented. It is not known whether the north range did also. The 1850s saw a major refitting programme. Steam power was introduced. New engine and boiler houses were added at either end of the east range, into which cast iron columns were inserted. These columns survive, together with evidence for drive shafting. The northern engine and boiler houses survive. Those to the south do not.

Subsequently the quadrangle became a factory for making ammunition boxes and barrels; the east range being a sawmill and cooperage, the west range carpenters' shops.

In 1878 the previously open south side was enclosed with a carpenters' workshop, a tall single storey iron-framed structure of two parallel ranges with saw-tooth profiled north light roofs. The ironwork is similar to that used to in-fill the Royal Laboratory courtyard in 1854 but is dated 1878. Two further, similar ranges were added to the north in 1890 in matching ironwork.

In this century a plain brick bay was added on the south side of the 1878 range and a bizarre half timbered additional storey was erected on top of the north range. Both of these have recently been removed.

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Deptford - Cradle of the British Navy

November 5, 2019, 1:45 am

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The latest local industry to close down is Convoys – which occupied the site of the old Deptford Dockyard – arguably one of the most important sites in British naval history. The site is technically in Lewisham Borough (although it is so near the Borough boundary that the road alongside it is in Greenwich!). Can we appeal to any Lewisham based members to keep us all up to date on what is going on at the old Dockyard site – and anyone sitting on any material about the history of the site is very welcome to send it in.

In the meantime here is the first part of an article by a member, Allan Burnett, about Deptford and its naval traditions:

IN DEPTH DEPTFORD – CRADLE OF THE BRITISH NAVY

BY Allan Burnett

There are places in our fair land that have universal appeal to the tourist. There are others of limited appeal that would attract the curious or the specialist. Yet again there are others to avoid like the plague. One such place is Deptford. It is situated in the south-east London and consists of a rough, very rough, two square miles of back streets sandwiched between the A2 trunk route, the River Thames, and a veritable maze of railways both used and disused. It is a drab; it is dreary, and incredibly depressing. Dirt and decay) demolition and desolation seem to stalk the streets. Perhaps one day a new Deptford will rise from the ruins but that is doubtful.

Such new buildings that have taken shape look as they have all tumbled out of the same square mould devoid of character beauty, inspiration or ingenuity. It is as if Deptford was spawned by the Industrial Revolution and is still suffering.

But Deptford is considerably older than it looks; and that is saying something, in fact its history is its only redeeming feature. Roman remains were unearthed near the toll gate at New Cross in 1735 and it seems they had a chain of forts or bastions from the River Ravensbourne to St. George's Fields in order to keep out the heathen hordes from Kent - today Connex South-eastern railway is marginally successful in bringing them all back in again!. The Ravensbourne is said to have received its name from Caesar who encamped at Keston twelve miles to the south. It must be remembered that Bourne is a Saxon word for River or Stream - Deptford le Stronde.

At one time it was believed that Deptford was known to the Saxons as 'Meretun' the dwelling place in the marsh perhaps the Saxon equivalent of 'Much Binding' and its first mention in history is in 871 AD when the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that King Aethelred, assisted by his brother Alfred (of subsequent fame as Alfred the Great) defeated the Danes here. The area was known as 'West Grenewych', but the Roman Bridge that carried the old Roman Road 'Watling Street' over the River Ravensbourne fell into disuse and the area took its name from the ford called 'Depe', (the name is believed to have came from the word 'deep') and became known as 'Depe-ford', which with various spellings (there were eleven different ways of spelling used in the 16th. and 17th. centuries), has persisted ever since.

By the 14th century a wooden structure was in place and it was the duty of the whole of the 'Hundred of Blakeheth' to keep it in good repair, being on the main artery to the Continent, it took a pounding . The Canterbury Pilgrims crossed over the bridge on their way to pay homage to Thomas a Beckett's shrine in Canterbury, as did Wat Tyler and his followers. King Henry V was met here in 1415 by the Mayor of London, the famous Richard Whittington, on his return from his wonderful victory at Agincourt – and so it went on, every journey between London and the continent via the English Channel crossed this fragile bridge.

Deptford was a traditional meeting place for ships and really came into its own in 1513 when King Henry VIII established a Royal dockyard here a few miles up-stream from the existing one at Woolwich and only a mile from the Royal Palace of Placentia at Greenwich.

This 'dockland' covered thirty acres and was for over three hundred years a centre of shipbuilding. At the same time the 'maisters, rules and maryners of your Navye within your Ryver Thamys and other places' petitioned the King for incorporation, claiming that your and inexperienced men were imperilling the lives and ships of the King's subjects by meddling with pilotage on the River Thames, depriving older ex-seamen of employment, but not themselves learning the art of seamanship. But bluff King Hal had other things on his mind at the time and it was not till the following year that he granted Letters Patent that incorporated the existing association of Guild of Pilots into the Trinity House Corporation.

This article appeared in the November 2000 GIHS Newsletter

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Steam colliers on the Thames

November 5, 2019, 1:52 am

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STEAM COLLIERS ON THE THAMES

IN OCTOBER GIHS was pleased to welcome Alan Pearsall to our meeting to talk on Steam Colliers. The text reproduced below is that of a similar talk given to the Docklands History Group last year (and reproduced with their permission). Thank you Alan.

Alan began by defining colliers as vessels carrying coal between the North Eastern ports and London. From medieval times until the advent of the canals and the railways, virtually all coal to the capital arrived by sea. The last collier disappeared from the Thames only twenty years ago. Until 1810 -1820, coal was delivered by sailing colliers, comparatively small vessels carrying about 200 tons each. They would discharge the coal overside at tiers or at riverside berths, rather than using the enclosed docks. With the expansion of London in the first part of the nineteenth century, port facilities became very strained. As the sailing colliers tended to arrive en masse on a favourable wind the river became clogged. Additionally these vessels completed only about twelve voyages a year, partly because they had to be ballasted for the return journey after discharging the coal, whereas steam colliers could be water ballasted.

Steam appeared on the Thames around 1814, the first vessels being paddle steamers. Since the paddles had to be sited amidships, cargo-carrying capacity was limited. The introduction of iron screw steamers in the 1840s solved many of the problems, and allowed an increase in cargo capacity.

In 1852 a consortium of NorthEast coalmine owners led by Charles Palmer was formed to construct larger vessels. The first of these was the John Bowes, which could carry 500 tons of coal. Many steam colliers were built by John Scott Russell on the Isle of Dogs but the principal yard was Palmer's at Jarrow. When the Palmer's yard eventually closed the town of Jarrow became a depressed area for many years.

Alan gave some impressive figures showing how the advent of steam colliers revolutionised the coal trade Into London:

1852 17 cargoes carried by steam = 9,500 tons of coal

1853 123 = 70,000

1854 345

1862 1,427 = 1 m.

The demand for coal was stimulated by the advent of gas lighting - the new gas companies demanded regular supplies of coal in large quantities and the sailing colliers just could not compete. Another stimulus was the Crimean War in 1854, when steam colliers were pressed into service to move troops and munitions to supply the army and navy. Steam colliers could carry 1000 tons dead weight and made one return voyage each week: sailing colliers could only carry 200 tons and only made 10/12 voyages a year. By the 1860s most coal carried to London came by steam colliers, with sailing vessels picking up the pieces.

Alan explained that, despite the dangers and arduous nature of the trade some steam colliers had a life of fifty years. Some were re-engined to upgrade their performance, being strengthened and fitted with compound and even triple expansion engines. Ships were owned in shares to reduce and spread the insurance costs. Several owners were aristocrats, like the Marquis of Londonderry and the Earl of Durham. A Coal Exchange was built in Lower Thames Street to facilitate trading

In the early days the coal was discharged manually by coal heavers who worked in the holds of vessels shovelling coal into baskets which were hoisted up on the yards of the ship and discharged into barges or carts. Eventually grab cranes were introduced, in around 1900. With the continued expansion of London and the increased use of gas and electricity the requirement for coal was insatiable

William Cory began by discharging coal in Victoria Dock, but objected to paying dock dues. He found a large hulk called the Great Atlas and moored it off Angerstein Wharf, and fitted it with hydraulic cranes. Colliers were unloaded on one side and discharged into lighters on the other.

New wharves were built not only along the Thames but also in creeks and inlets to supply the new gas works and power stations. In 1869 coal was delivered directly to the newly opened Beckton Gas Works. The London Gas Light & Coke Co. commissioned Palmer's of Jarrow to build vessels with telescopic masts and collapsible funnels for delivery to Nine Elms, the first "flat irons". In the first half of the Twentieth Century, scores of flat iron steam colliers streamed in and out of London, owned by Gas and Electric Companies, William Cory and Stephenson Clarke. Although the domestic market for sea coal declined as it tended to be brought into London by rail and then delivered to houses via the horse and cart the demands of industry continued apace, spurred on by gas and electricity and power stations.

However, Clean Air legislation in the 1950s and 1960s dealt these industries a heavy blow. Some colliers converted to diesel but with the introduction of natural gas many power closed or moved away. Gas production in London ceased in 1970 and the need for colliers disappeared.

This article appeared in the November 2000 Newsletter

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Excavations at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich

November 5, 2019, 1:57 am

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Excavations at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich

Sine April 1999 the Oxford Archaeological Unit (OAU) has been carrying out a major programme of archaeological works and excavations at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich. This archaeological project, initially funded by English Partnerships London and now carried forward by the London Development Agency has been ongoing throughout the regeneration of this brownfield site.

Naturally the main archaeological interest of the site arises from its use as the nation's principal arsenal and armaments factory, dating from the site's purchase by the Crown in 1671 to its final demise in 1994. At its peak during the 1914-18 war the Arsenal covered over 100 acres and employed over 80,000 people. To date the excavations have centred primarily on the western end of the site notably on the sites of the Royal Laboratories (built 1696-7 for ammunition production) and 'The Great Pile', a complex of gun finishing workshops and storehouses of 1717- 20 attributed to Nichols Hawksmoor. Both sites reveal evidence of continuous adaptation to new pocess and technologies including the switch from horsepower to steam power, as well as hydraulic, gas and electric installations. The Royal Laboratory excavation revealed fragmentary remains from its early courtyard period and good evidence from its roofing in 1855 to form 'the largest covered machine shop in the world'. Excavations within the 'Great Pile' revealed machine bases, coal cellars, iron and bronze furnaces, casting bosses, boiler houses, an engine house, and flue systems. The remains were often of massive scale, the foundations for one steam engine consisting of 250 tonnes of stone blocks, whilst the casting pits excavated were over 4 metres deep. Finds recovered have included crucibles, gun mould fragments, foundry tools, stone lithographic blocks, cannon balls and iron Cannon, well as lead shot and bullets, covering almost the whole period during which the Royal Arsenal Woolwich was in production

More recent works, have centred principally on the sites of the 'West (or old) Forge (built from 1856) and the 'Central Power Station' built c.1890 on the site of the east quadrangle of the Napoleonic 'Grand Store'. During these works three massive steam hammer bases were encountered. Two of these were from the 10 Ton and 12 Ton hammers described by Vincent c.1875 (Vincent W.T. , Warlike Woolwich) p.31) whilst a third by Massey was somewhat later in date. Despite their colossal size and weight (up to 100 Tons each) the London Development Agency has funded their recovery and relocation for monumental display on site. Amongst a huge number of other recovered artefacts have been four 10 metre long rifled liners from 12" naval guns of the 1880s.

The investigations have also revealed a late Roman cemetery at the western end of the site. To date over 140 pagan graves have been excavated. Whilst no human remains survived coffin and body stains were hauntingly apparent and some 25% of the burials included artefacts, notably pottery vessels, shale and copper alloy buttons, and bracelets, glass beads and glass vessel. Some outlying graves were also found, several-oriented east-west indicating Christian burials. Other pre-arsenal features excavated have included foundations, ditches, pits and a medieval double flued, tile built pottery kiln

Many of the recovered artefacts will be displayed on site in due course, hopefully in the proposed Borough Heritage Centre. A major publication on the archaeology of the site is in course of preparation.

Rob Kinchin-Smith & Ben Ford, Oxford Archaeological Unit, 25^thOctober 2000

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Locomotive Woolwich at Waltham Abbey

November 5, 2019, 2:24 am

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LOCOMOTIVE 'WOOLWICH'

AT WALTHAM ABBEY

Earlier this year questions were raised about the 'Woolwich'– a locomotive once in the Arsenal and until recently part of a preserved railway in Devon. When plans were announced for the sale of this railway some of our members raised questions about the fate of the locomotive – it was eventually sold to the heritage project at Waltham Abbey. Since then it has turned out that that some local Greenwich and Lewisham people are closely involved with development of the heritage site on the old Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey - thanks in particular to John Bowles, of Blackheath, who has given us a great deal of useful information about events at Waltham Abbey. We hope to have a speaker and a visit to the project within the next year.

Another activist from Waltham Abbey, Robin Parkinson of Lewisham, has written to us to say:

"I am pleased to pass on news of the ex RAR equipment which has been purchased by the Waltham Abbey Royal Gunpowder Mills Company. Dating back to the 1870s the railways or tramways as they were then, were used to transfer material between the process areas and also from the south site (now built on) to the northern site (remaining). Records show an 18" gauge railway was built to replace previous systems around 1916 as a number of paraffin fuel and electric vehicles were used. Steam was never a motive power at Waltham Abbey – so 'Woolwich' will be a first. The initial plan is to rebuild the line at the original 18" gauge, which was the same as RAR Woolwich and other MOD sites. The layout will try to follow the path of the original from Cordite store across the bottom of Long Walk and down past the Gunpowder mills at the end of Queen's Meadow. The good news is that on October 16^th2000 locomotive Avonside 'Woolwich' (No. 1748 of 1916) plus six coaches arrived safely on site from Bicton Woodlands Railway in Devon. The company has also purchased Hunslet 'Carnegie' 0-4-4-0 diesel (no. 4524 of 1954) also ex RAR Woolwich. This needs some attention to one of the drive bogies and is at present awaiting inspection at a railway engineering company in the southwest.

There are two ways in which you might be able to help. I have yet to find any photographs of 'Woolwich' taken whilst operating at RAR, copies of these might confirm the original chimney design and shed number whilst at the Arsenal. Also I would like confirmation of the livery and lining out. Track laying is going to be a major project and we will certainly be looking for volunteers for both this and carriage restoration. This is an area where your members would be very welcome. It is going to involve a lot of hard work. Whilst no formal group as yet been formed I would appreciate hearing from anybody interested. Please feel free to contact me (daytime) 0797 982605 or evenings 0208 297 0928.

Gunpowder production began in Waltham Abbey in the mid-1660s and the mills were purchased by the Crown in 1787 – at around the time when the Greenwich gunpowder depot was closed. Production ceased during the Second World War because of a perceived risk from bombers and the site was eventually decommissioned in 1991. There are 300 structures, 21 listed buildings, and 34 acres of 'Special Scientific Interest'. The Waltham Abbey Royal Gunpowder Mills Charitable Foundation was set up to protect the site and administer and endowment fund. The site is described as one of Britain's best kept secrets. They hope to open to the public in April of this year.

The Waltham Abbey site must be of particular interest to historians in Woolwich and Greenwich because of its close relationship with the Arsenal and some of the earlier military establishments in Greenwich. For instance their web site tells us of the work at Waltham of both William Congreve and Frederick Abel – both names strongly associated with research in Woolwich. Waltham Abbey is of course a close neighbour of the other large military site in North London – the Enfield Lock Small Arms Factory – an organisation which grew up in Greenwich and Lewisham before moving to Enfield. News is a bit scarce about what is happening on the Enfield site – beyond a mass of new housing – has anyone any news

This article appeared in the January 2001 GIHS Newsletter

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Reviews and snippets November 2000

November 5, 2019, 9:06 am

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Reviews and snippets January 2001

PUBLICATIONS RECEIVED

ARCHIVE

Issue 28 contains an article by GIHS member, Pat O'Driscoll on her experiences in sailing barge Olive May – and indeed the history of the barge before Pat joined her. It would not be honest to pretend that the article contains anything about Greenwich – but there are some stunning pictures and stories of a sailing barge at work on other parts of London River – well worth reading! The issue also contains a picture of Thornley Colliery, Co.Durham taken following a disastrous fire in 1875. It is very likely that Thornley Street in East Greenwich was named after this colliery

GLIAS NEWSLETTER, 191

Contains a report of the visit to Woolwich Arsenal arranged by Mike Neill – and attended by many GIHS members. It also contains the article on Excavations at the Arsenal taken from our previous newsletter, a report of the Crossness Engines AGM, and a note about the Antigallican Pub in Charlton.

MERIDIAN

The December 2000 issue contains an interview with the new Director of the Maritime Museum – Rear Admiral Roy Clare. Some GIHS members have already met Roy and we look forward to future co-operation.

UNDERGROUND NEWS

Roger Hough has passed us a copy of this monthly magazine – which is to do with railways not chalk mines (sorry, Nick Catford). Roger points out that –perhaps now that Greenwich is attached to the underground network at last – that it is full of articles of great interest. The edition which Roger has given us is for April 2000 and includes the working timetable for the Jubilee Line as well as all sorts of news snippets and reviews.

LEWISHAM LOCAL HISTORY SOCIETY NEWSLETTER.

Contains a note from Peter Gurnett about the Russian replica ship, Shtandart, which visited us last summer. Peter points out that when Peter the Great left Deptford in 1698 he took with him about 500 English engineers, artificers, surgeons, artisans, artillerymen, etc. Peter points out that this means that the original Shtandart was in effect Deptford built!

The issue also contains a reproduction of a gas bill from someone who lived at 6 Annandale Road in 1917. This came from the South Metropolitan Gas Company, at Old Kent Road, and showed that the occupant, a Mr. Drapper, owed 18s.6d. for his gas plus 1/3d. for meter rent and 1/6d. for gas stove hire.

BLACKHEATH GUIDE

The December issue contains a fascinating article by Neil Rhind on 'modern' architecture - and draws attention to a new book by a local author on the subject (Modern Retro by Neil Bingham and Andrew Weaving).

The January issue has an interview by Sarah Hodgson with Terry Scales about his new book, Visions of Greenwich Reach. A Homage to the Working Thames.

Neil Rhind writes about Blackheath winters with particular reference to alterations in the course of the Kidbrook stream and the swimming bath once near Blackheath Station – using old carp ponds.

VOICE OF THE VALLEY

Amazing as it may seem Charlton Football Club supporters have published an article on interest to local industrial historians! This is in their April issue in an article by Keith Ferris and concerns the history of the site of the Valley Ground.

Anyone who has visited The Valley can see it is an old pit and in the 1800s this was owned by the Roupell Boyd estates but quarried by Lewis Glenton, limeburner. In 1840 the Turnpike Trust gave Glenton permission to build a railway from the quarry to the riverside. Once work started there was an immediate row – and Keith Ferris gives some details of this. He points our that the route of Glenton's railway was today's Ransom Road and that the rather strange angle, and bridge, on this road is explained once you realise it is an old railway trackbed – and he further said that lines fanned out over the area of today's football ground. Part of the railway was reused by British Ropes – and indeed some track remained by the riverside until reasonably recently.

LEWISHAM HISTORY JOURNAL

The latest edition, No.8, contains an extremely important article on Mumford's Flour Mill in Greenwich High Road by English Heritage's Jonathan Clarke. This is in fact the text of the lecture given to our Society by Jonathan earlier this year (and snaffled from under our noses by Peter Gurnett!!!). Anyone who didn't come to our lecture is urged to go at once and buy a copy of this text – perhaps one of the most important descriptions of a Greenwich building to be written this year. If you did come to the lecture you will be rushing out to get it anyway because you will know how good it was!

Also in this issue are articles on Jacobites in Deptford and Henry Williamson in the First World War. Lewisham Local History Society are a bit coy about where to buy copies from. I got my second copy from Tom Sheppherd, 2 Bennett Park, SE3. I needed a second copy because the first one was stolen by someone who was so overwhelmed by Jonathan's article that they ran off with my copy!

GASLIGHT

The newsletter of the North West Gas Historical Society, an unlikely place to find Greenwich industry, you might think. BUT – in their December 2000 issue is a reproduction of the directors and chief officers of the Plumstead and Charlton Consumers Gas Company taken in 1870. Gaslight's editor, Terry Mitchell, reckons that this is the oldest photograph taken of interest to gas historians. It was reproduced in the South Metropolitan Gas Company's Co-partnership Journal in May 1936 and credited with thanks to Woolwich Antiquarians.

OPEN TO TIDE MILLS

The proceedings of a Conference held in September at the House Mill at Bromley by Bow have been published. It contains items on tide mills – at Bromley by Bow but also at Eling, Woodbridge and at the Tower of London, as well as details of some abroad.

Merryweather and Saskatoon

Go to the web site of the City of Saskatoon - its in Canada! There you will not only find pages and pages and pages of pictures of Greenwich built fire engines but a company history embellished with archive pictures of the factory in Greenwich High Road…. (Someone said something about a prophet not being recognised in their own country…?).

WAS THE FIRST BRITISH MOTOR CAR BUILT IN GREENWICH?

This is the claim made on a web site http://www.mysterymotors.com/directory.htm. The author says that this was built at the Merryweather works in Greenwich High Road by Edward Butler. …. Tell us more someone!

WILLIAM MONTAGUE GLENISTER

In 1861 a William Montague Glenister and a Mr. Merryweather patented the first twin hand pump action fire tricycle – the forerunner of the modern fire engine. Glenister had begun his career in the police working for the Great Western Railway and then becoming Superintendent in Hastings. In 1861 he also became the first Captain of the new Hastings Fire Brigade.

- is he anything to do with Glenister Road, SE10?

WOOLWICH AND LEWISHAM STEAM

ENGINES.

We are indebted to Peter Jenkins for the following notes taken from the Surveyor General's minutes.

Woolwich Wharf – September 15^th1806 ' Captain Hayter, commanding Royal Engineers at Woolwich … the Steam Engine used in the construction of the New Wharf at Woolwich required repairs for a sum not exceeding £350. Ordered that Captain Hayter be acquainted that the Board approve of Mr. Lloyd being employed to repair the Steam Engine upon the terms of his proposal'

Royal Carriage Department January 25th 1809 Maudsley to provide a steam engine, plus an extra boiler for the Royal Carriage Works at Woolwich. (N.B. the engines is to be connected by drums and shafts to straps - thus it is a rotary engine) February 24^th1809 Bramah had made repairs to boiler and valves at the Royal Carriage Department.

Royal Armoury Mills at Lewisham – December 16^th 1808 – John Faulder allowed 52/- a chaldron for Wylon Moor Coals, the market price, for the steam engine at Lewisham. April 1^st 1809. 36hp steam engine at Lewisham working extremely well. Lloyd made straps for the drums. April 18^th 1809 Two labourers required to carry coal and sift cinders at Lewisham.

LOCAL INDUSTRY FLOURISHES

The Maze Hill Pottery is in the Old Ticket Office of Maze Hill Station in Woodlands Park Road, SE10 and is very much in business. Lisa Hammond, the potter, developed a soda glaze technique while at Goldsmiths and has worked on the process ever since. She draws attention to the similarity of this process to that undertaken at the Woolwich kiln – now under restoration Lisa not only makes and sells pots at Maze Hill, she also runs classes in the subject. Another Greenwich pottery can be found very close by in Chevening Road - where Sarah Perry makes stoneware.

GASHOLDERS

The great gasholder at East Greenwich is not generally seen as an attractive object. Things are not the same abroad:

Milan - an almost exact copy of the East Greenwich gas holder is being turned into a Museum and exhibition centre. .

Oberlin, North America, a small gas holder is an estate feature: h

Oberhausen in the Ruhr the enormous gasholder (of a different design) is now an entertainment and exhibition complex.

Brisbane, Australia, a holder is a feature in a new park. cultural events have already been held in the gas holder while it, and three others, are being renovated.

Gelsenkirchen, Germany, a spherical holder is now a used as a feasture in a 'greening' process throughout the city.

Amsterdam …other similar projects in Florence and in Portugal.

John Bowles has passed us copy of the SAVE Britain's Heritage newsletter from February last year. This includes a special item on gas holders with particular reference to proposed demolition of those at St.Pancras They go on 'perhaps a more interesting approach might be the one adopted at some sites in the German Ruhr …. Kings Cross is not the only site under threat. Britain was once a world leader in the gas industry and thr race is on to survey surviving sites and assess which ought to be preserved before they are all gone. You can help by letting SAVE know of any particularly attractive or historic gas holders near you that you believe deserve consideration for listing'.

INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE AS A FORCE IN A

DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY

This is the subject of a Conference to be held in May in Orebro County, Sweden – under the auspices of the Committee on Cultural Heritage of the Industrial Era in Sweden. It asks how industrial monuments can be used to create identity, and can they be a force in a changing society?

INDUSTRIES OF GREENWICH - Peter Trigg

J.Stone & Co. – The Charlton branch of this firm is mainly known for making large propellers and, in more recent times, for thurst units as well. Such famous ships as the Queen Mary were fitted with Stones propellers and fitted with Stone's propellers and transport of these from the works was always a great source of interest.

Electrical Engineering

The earliest practical application of electricity was the telegraph and about the middle of the nineteenth century many firms set up business to make telegraphic cables and instruments. Submarine cables, in particular, were in great demand and Greenwich/Charlton. Having ready access to the Thames, were ideal areas for their manufacture. As electrical engineering developed later in the century most of the early firms widened their scope to cover virtually all electrical equipment.

Elliott Brothers (Lewisham)– Originally scientific instrument makers they moved to Lewisham late in the nineteenth century. Electrical instruments became their speciality soon after the move and in more recent times electronic control systems.

Glass Elliot & Co. (East Greenwich)– This company in conjunction with the Gutta Percha Company made past of the first transatlantic telegraph cable in 1857 and many others over the next decade or so on including the second transatlantic cable laid by the Great Eastern in 1865.

W.T.Henley (Greenwich)– This was another firm initially prominent in telegraphic work but mostly known in later times for power cable production.

THE ORDER OF INDUSTRIAL HEROISM

We have been sent a copy of 'The Order of Industrial Heroism' by W.H.Fevyer, J.W.Wilson and J.E.Cribb. (pub. Orders and Medals Society). This may seem to be an unusual subject to highlight here, but it contains many stories which throw a great deal of light on industrial history in our area. For example:

Albert Boswell, Charlton, SE7 – a foundry worker presented with his award in Greenwich Town Hall – 27^thOctober 1954

A trimmer was grinding a magnesium casting during which a considerable amount of inflammable magnesium dust had gathered on his clothing. A spark from the grinder set his clothes alight and dropping the girder he ran along the main gangway of the shop. Albert Boswell, with two others, went to his rescue and put out the flames. This was at considerable personal risk because of dust on their own clothes.

James Ernest Hawes, Charlton, SE7 – presented at Minor Hall, Greenwich, 8^th January 1954.

James Hawes was a 51 year old employee of South Eastern Gas Board, known locally as 'Big Jim'. In October 1953 at Phoenix Wharf a storage tank burst and released 30,000 gallons of liquid ammonia. W.J.Bell, a stoker, was trapped and overcome in a boiler room where the liquid was 18 inches deep. Without waiting for a respirator, Hawes took a deep breath, and waded 20 yards through the ammonia to where Bell was lying face down, and carried him out. While others tried, in vain, to revive Bell by artificial respiration, Hawes went back into the fumes to look for two fitters who were thought to be trapped in the engineer's work shed, but who had actually managed to escape.

THE ARSENAL GETS ITS OWN WEB SITE

A group of Arsenal enthusiasts have now set up their own website .it includes a lot (but rather small) pictures of the Arsenal in the past as well as today. It includes details of developments and of the archaeological dig, which has been going on recently. There are links through to many relevant local and national organisations including the new Firepower project, and to the Royal Arsenal Woolwich Historical Society. This is a really important initiative which should soon put the Arsenal and its past firmly into a world-wide web presence.

DISCOVER ELTHAM

GIHS member Darrell Spurgeon has re-issued 'Discover Eltham' in his 'Greenwich Guide Books' series. While Eltham may not seem to be the best source of IA in Greater London, Darrell has nevertheless done his very best. By including Shooters Hill and Mottingham in the area covered he has found some interesting water industry and farming remains. Sadly the only remaining factory in the area - Stanley's in New Eltham – has now closed although the buildings remain for the present. All in all Darrell has found some surprising things in an unpromising area,

WATERFRONT DESIGN PROPOSALS AWARD

Locally based river-interest organisation, The London Rivers Association, hopes to launch an annual award together with URBED. This would be to encourage good waterfront design as a catalyst in promoting urban renaissance – a similar scheme in the USA attracts 80 applications some from the UK. Do you think this is a good idea? Do you have comments on the criteria for judging the award, would you or your company be interested in entering.

HOWARD BLOCH

It is with great sadness that we would like to note the death of Howard Bloch. Howard was known to many GHIS members as the Local History Librarian for the London Borough of Newham where he worked for many years. During this period he published several books and articles most covering the heavily industrialised area of West Ham and the Royal Docks – some of which was once in Woolwich. His last book 'Germans in London' was about German immigration in Canning Town and detailed much about the sugar industry there in the nineteenth and early twentieth century. Howard was closely involved with the community and it's history in Newham - for example he was involved in community plays, talks and walks. Although he continued to write the history of the area he left his job in Newham some years ago, eventually moving to Lewisham Local History Department where he worked until this summer. In this period he helped set up Greenwich Industrial History Society – leading the Society on its first outdoors event in a walk around the North Woolwich area. He made many contributions to this newsletter – and there is a backlog of articles by him, which will appear in due course. So many people knew Howard and worked with him and many of them will want to pay tribute to his dedication and hard work. He had many friends and admirers and it is with great sorrow that we have all since realised that he himself never knew that.

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Letters January 2001

November 5, 2019, 11:39 am

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LETTERS JANUARY 2001

From Barbara Ludlow. Re: Stratford and Co. Barge Builders. This was St.Mary and St.Andrew's Wharf, Woolwich. There is a photo on p.71 in my Greenwich book

From Peter Adams. A fellow genealogical researcher has directed me to your Industrial History Society website. In the 1871 Census my grandfather was at John Street, Rochester aged 18 working as a Wood Pattern Maker in an 'Iron Factory'. His father and grandfather were both James Bowden, Iron moulders from Phillack Cornwall. Any help regarding his Greenwich connections would be greatly appreciated. I would particularly like a copy of any J Penn articles and am happy to meet any cost.

The following is part of his obituary from the Hastings and St.Leonards' Observer. 2^nd Feb 1929.

AN ENGINEER: - On 22nd January, Mr James Bowden of 62 Vicarage Road, died at the age of 76 years. Apprenticed to engineering at the age of 13 years, he became chief pattern maker at the Thames Iron Works, and for the 15 years previous to his retirement, at the age of 72, was engineer's pattern maker at Vickers engineering works, Crayford. During his career he made patterns for the engines of H.M.S. Dreadnought and H.M.S. Thunderer. Tributes included one with "Sincerest sympathy from Greenwich branch of United Pattern Makers' Association, in the loss of one of its founders, Bro James Bowden was a straight man".

From Angela Pascoe: Hello - I've just discovered your web site and it seems very interesting. I lived near St Alphege' s until I was 14 so I know the area quite well. Many of my ancestors lived and worked in Greenwich eg...Harryman (fishermen/seamen), William Simpson (oil mill labourer at gas works), Robert Simpson (proprietor at the Ship Hotel). My Nan worked at the now demolished factory in Roan St during the last war. I'll enjoy looking at the web site in peace once my children are in bed. Good luck.

From Neil Mearns

I am currently researching material for a book to be entitled "Guardians of the Tyne", a history of the River Tyne Police, the Tyne Improvement Commission Docks and Piers Police Service, and the Tyne Fireboats. I am particularly interested in obtaining additional information concerning a fireboat, which was built by Messrs. Merryweather & Son, Greenwich in 1916. I would be extremely grateful if any members of the Greenwich Industrial History Society could assist me with any knowledge they have regarding the availability of records relating to Merryweather & Son.

The information which I have concerning the fireboat is detailed below:

Calcutta / Merryweather

* Steam Fireboat; Constructed by Merryweather & Son Ltd., Greenwich to the order of the Commissioners for the Port of Calcutta, India: 1916;

Requisitioned by the Admiralty on completion of trials with agreement to deliver to Calcutta at end of the War: 1916; Sailed from River Thames, crewed by Royal Navy (Chatham): 28th August, 1916; Arrived in River Tyne: 29th August, 1916;

Based on River Tyne and crewed by Royal Naval Reserve borne on the books of H.M.S. Satellite, under orders of Senior Naval Officer, River Tyne; Placed out of Admiralty commission at Boulogne, France: 21st February, 1919.

* On 14th June, 1916, Captain Superintendent, Tyne District proposed that the vessel be named Calcutta. However during voyage to Tyne her name was reported as Merryweather. It is unclear which name was officially adopted.

From B.M.Starbuck.

My interest concerns the Gravesend Gas Works, where in the late 1800s my family held a contract to supply coal. Their fleet of 'cats' included the sailing schooners 'Sea Witch', the 'R.N.Parker', 'Jane Duff' and ill-fated 'Glenroy' lost with all hands in a gale off Yarmouth. At one time Starbuck and Rackstraw was the oldest private firm of shipowners in the Port of London.

From Andy Hollings:

I can send you photos of Appleby's steam engines in NZ, very well preserved. I know Arrol was Sir William Arrol who purchased Jessop and Appleby in the 1900's and then went out of business shortly afterward.

From Alan Smith.

I have in my possession a silver pocket watch made in Switzerland with a Molassine trademark in enamel on one side. This is in a presentation box and has been passed down through family lineage to myself. The original recipient was an Albert Smith who lived 1868-1917. I am trying to find out whether the watch was given as a token of service to the company or had some other purpose. I originally thought that Molassine was an American company until I recently found on the web the GIHS newsletter. If he was an employee, it is quite possible he resided near to Greenwich. You will appreciate that with a name like Smith I have a few problems!

From John Spreadbury,

Any info on Greenwich workshop for the blind in Easteny St [now Feathers Place] thank you

From Lorraine Ong.

My Great grandfather and great great grandfather were noted as being watermen on marriage certificates. My father always believed his grandfather was a merchant seaman! What did watermen do? They both were born and lived around Northfleet, Plumstead and Gravesend areas. Do you have any publications available on this? My Ancestors were both named Charles J Ginn b 1859 and Charles Ginn b 1835! The latter being the son of Scarff Ginn from Essex. approx. b. 1807. I do hope that you can help me with compiling a picture of the life of my grandfathers.

From John Day.

Re. the note on Merryweather steam fire engines in the last issue (appliances is the proper term), why has 'Sutherland', the horse drawn engine of 1863, believed to be the oldest preserved steamer, been left out? After all, Kensington is not all that far from Greenwich. There is a picture of it in 'The Fire Engine'by Simon Goodenough published by Orbis in 1978, p.55. It is also pictured in 'The Engineer' (Vol. 16, p59, July 31, 1863), because it gained first prize in its class in the Steam Fire Engine trials of that year. The full report of these trials is on pages 9, 23, 32, 47 and 59. It gives all the dimensions and performances. Later in the same volume is a copy of a paper on the History of the Steam Fire Engine by W.Roberts, who built some of the earliest three wheeled engines. Other references to steam fire engines that have mention of Merryweather are in the same journal (Vol.12, pp.8 & 279, Vol.14, pp.12, 26, 259 & 295, Vol. 22, p241, Vol. 28, p114 and Vol. 74, p412. Just to stir things a bit more, there is an engraving of the Merryweather 'Greenwich' steam fire raft in 'The Story of the Fire Service'by Tony Paul, published by Almark Publishing in 1975, page 40. The engraving shows the name as M.F.B. Active. If somebody likes to research the subject, the following may be helpful: - James Compton Merryweather, Fire Protection of Mansions, 1884, James Compton Merryweather, Handbook of Fire Brigades, 1886, Roper's Handbook of Modern Steam Fire Engines, 1888

Forgot to tell you in the last epistle that there is a series of 22 instalments of '60 Years of Thames Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering'in Vols. 84 and 85 of 'The Engineer,' July 1897 to June 1898. Don't look to me to abridge them, I'm too busy with a model of the Crofton No. 2 engine and researching a paper on Multi-barrel guns over a time scale extending from Ezekial to the present day. Just realised that Simon Goodenough's book was republished in the same format as a soft back in 1985 under the new title of 'Fire, the Story of the Fire Engine,' its all part of a racket to make sure nothing is easy.

From Mary Anne Gourlay.

I have just been reading your website and came across the Enderby Settlement Diaries. I am interested in this subject as I am doing research on the Enderby Co. I would like to obtain a copy. I am also researching my family whose background is the Greenwich region.

From Nicholas Hall.

My article on the gun maker Blakeley should be coming out in our next Royal Artillery yearbook - with a suggestion as to why Josiah Vavasseur named his Blackheath house 'Rothbury'! I went to see if the Bear Lane premises of the London Ordnance Works survived in Southwark - they don't, but the pub predating it does. It is so annoying: the London Ordnance Works building was still there in 1974 when I was working at the Tower so I could have seen it if I'd known!

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MEMORIES OF AN ROF APPRENTICE

November 5, 2019, 11:46 am

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More of John Day's

MEMORIES OF AN ROF APPRENTICE

As far as I remember there were four canteens for the use of the workforce. They all reeked of a strange mixture of boiling fat, cabbage and cheap soap - and I kept out of them - but they were well supported during the day for tea as well as during the official lunch hour. The surgery was presided over by “Septic Sam”. As now all injuries had to be reported and sent to the surgery but such was the treatment meted out that small injuries were kept quiet. I went once and have a memory of a mid - Victorian standard of equipment and hygiene. The surgery backed onto the boundary wall a couple of hundred yards from the main gate nearby was the apprentices club. It’s main attribute was a table tennis table which was heavily used lunch times and evenings.

The last shop I worked in as an apprentice was Miscellaneous Machine situated at the Warren Lane end, - near where the new Museum of Artillery will be. There I worked on what must have been a rejected export to Russia just after WW I; all the wording on it was in Cyrillic and, what was worse, all the feed handles worked the “wrong” way because for a fixed handle to move a slide away by clockwise turning, the thread has to be left handed. I also made bits for a printing press which the foreman was building for himself - all the apprentices well knew that if they got a drawing on an odd sheet of paper, it was a 'foreman’s foreigner'. There was a first year apprentice in that shop who asked me about a difficult screw cutting job. I lent him, grudgingly, my special screw cutting tool with instructions not to let it get blunt. When he came back it showed signs of heavy use, so I told him to take it to the shop blow pipe and harden it, but not to get it too hot. He came back, very hang dog, with a shapeless blob of metal to the delight of the rest of the shop who knew that the tool was made of lead !.

I don’t remember ever getting caught by the old favourites of “a long weight” or “a right hand cuff”, but Woolwich had a special trick that was foolproof. Going to the stores to borrow a tool, one would be told that 'Bill Starbuck' had it, but was 'not using it at the moment' . Enquiries about Bill’s whereabouts landed one in a far corner of the shop asking again, only to be told he was working in another building and to go there. The other building either denied knowledge or moved one on another wild goose chase!

In April I became 21 and could no longer be an apprentice, so when term at the Poly finished, I went back as a journeyman fitter for a few months. WW I equipment was being resuscitated and I was engaged in fitting drum brakes to 1918 3 inch A.A. guns to make them suitable for vehicle towing, There was also another job in strengthening the trails of 9.2 inch howitzers – knocking out ¾ inch rivets to enable a heavier gauge plate to be fitted. As I left I took out my tool box in my own Austin with a gate pass for the tools. The only thing I was not allowed to take was a very nice set of single ended spanners up to 1 inch. These had arrived with a new electric motor and had never been entered in the books, so I reckoned they did not belong to Woolwich !. There was quite an argument and in the end

this article appeared in the January 2001 GIHS Newsletter

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Deptford Cradle of the British Navy

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IN DEPTH DEPTFORD

CRADLE OF THE BRITISH NAVY

by Allan Burnett (part 2)

Deptford's shipbuilding industries attracted a rich variety of personalities – the best known being Samuel Pepys, the first Secretary of the Admiralty, President of the Royal Society, and twice Master of Trinity House. His name is preserved in a huge housing estate, opened in 1966 by Lord Louis Mountbatten on the site of the old Navy Victualling Yard adjacent to the Dockyard.

Deptford was also the birthplace of the notable Pett family. Phineas Pett born in 1570 was the keeper of the Plank Yard at Chatham when he was thirty years of age. He became the first Master of the Shipwrights Company and built 'Sovereign of the Seas' at Woolwich when he was sixty-seven. This ship was 232 feet long, had a 49-foot beam, and was 1,647 tons with eleven anchors. She was nicknamed the 'Golden Devil' by the Dutch. Phineas's son, Sir Phineas, was Commissioner of the Navy in 1667 when the Dutch ships, led by de Ruyter sailed up the Medway and attacked Chatham. Sir Phineas was impeached by the House of Commons for inattention to duty, but the charges were later dropped. His cousin, Peter Pett, is credited with the introduction of the frigate to the British Navy – the first being 'Constant Warwick' in 1649.

For over forty years John Evelyn, the diarist, dramatist, City Commissioner and promoter of the Royal Society lived at Sayes Court, in Deptford – a manor house with a chequered history. The manor of West Greenwich had been granted to the Bishop of Liseux under William the Conqueror. The property passed through the female line to the wife of Geoffrey de Saye and in 1612 it was given to Richard Brown, Ambassador to Paris. His great granddaughter married John Evelyn – which is how this celebrity came to Sayes Court, as a tenant in 1648 and then by purchasing it for £3,500 in 1652. After 1694 his tenant was Captain (later Admiral) Benbow and then Peter the Great, Czar of Russia, who came to Deptford to learn the art of shipbuilding. Most of Sayes Court was demolished in 1728 but the remnant served as a workhouse until 1881. The site of Sayes Court is now a small park, Sayes Park – situated behind a public house called the John Evelyn

The centuries following the founding of the Dockyard at Deptford saw a great expansion in trade and exploration. Joint Stock Companies were formed to finance voyages of discovery - one of the earliest being the Russia Company in 1553 to try and find a north east route to China. Hugh Willoughby and Richard Chancellor sailed from Deptford and although Willoughby perished, Chancellor went on to discover the White Sea, visit Moscow and open up trade with Russia.

In 1576 Sir Martin Frobisher led an expedition to look for the north west passage – it is more than likely that the expedition was fitted out at Deptford.

In the following year Drake left for his trans-world voyage of discovery in 'Pelican'. The Pelican sailed back to Deptford and on 4^th April 1581 Drake was knighted by Queen Elizabeth and the ship renamed 'Golden Hinde'. It was permanently preserved – but eventually destroyed.

In the year Drake was knighted the East India Company fitted out its first expedition. The company obtained its charter from Queen Elizabeth. With the financial rewards of an expedition to the east, the companies bought storehouses at Deptford, on the same site later used by the General Steam Navigation Company as a repair yard, and later occupied by a road haulage firm – the narrow approach road is still known as Stowage but is now part of a housing estate.

In 1607 the East India company launched its first ship 'Trades Increase' - at 1,200 tons the largest of her day and Henry Hudson left from Deptford in the 80 ton Hopewell on this first voyage for the English Muscovy Company to seek in vain, a north west passage across the north pole to China and the far east. Instead he found Spitzbergen and the fishery trade. In 1768 a former Whitby collier left Deptford with a Lt. James Cook in command. Three years later HMS Endeavour returned having rounded the Horn and discovered New Zealand. Thus Deptford has an assured place in maritime history – but no hint of this is available to the tourist. I sometimes wonder if the local authority is aware of its' heritage!

The run-down of the Dockyard co-incided with the decline of the sailing ships. It's resources could not cope with iron and steam. It closed for the first time in 1844 and finally closed in 1869. The last ship to be built at the Royal Dockyard was a 1,322 ton corvette, the steamship 'Druid'. The site was bought by the City of London to serve as a cattle market, live cattle being imported from North America and slaughtered, but trade declined due to improvements in refrigeration and the market closed in 1914. Thereafter it was an army reserve depot and then became Convoy's Wharf – and is now due for change again. The main imports recently have been paper from the Baltic, general cargo from nearby European ports and the transhipment of grain – a far cry from the rumbustious days of Drake, Cook and Hudson.

Next to the Dockyard site is that of the Royal Naval Victualling Yard, established by Order in Council in 1742/ This was the largest of the Royal Navy's UK storehouses and until 1961 could provide everything from the proverbial pin to an anchor – not forgetting the rum which was stored in huge vats holding thousands of gallons. The main buildings erected by Sir Charles Middleton in 1780 are preserved and incorporated in a housing scheme as luxury flats – and known locally as the 'Rum Warehouses

This article appeared on the January 2001 GIH Newsletter

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Co-operative Society Archives in the South East

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CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY ARCHIVES IN THE SOUTH EAST

One of the most important of Greenwich Institutions and employers was the Royal Arsenal Co-operative Society. Last year Greenwich Industrial History Society heard Ron Roffey talk about the Royal Arsenal Co-operative Society and his work in collecting their archives and memorabilia. Ron also concentrated on the work which the Society did as a productive unit – not just as a series of retail outlets – and he talked at length about their factory in what was then known as Commonwealth Buildings on the old Woolwich Dockyard site. The following article is by Peter Collier, Assistant to Honorary Archivist

The former Royal Arsenal Co-operative Society’s premises in Powis Street, Woolwich, are well known to many who live in South East London. Until the end of 1999 they housed amongst other things the Co-operative Archive that was founded and built up by Ron Roffey, the former Secretary of the RACS. At that date the collection comprised over 10,000 objects and documents and an estimated 10,000 unlisted pictures and photographs.

In addition to the RACS records and artefacts, the collection included material from the societies that at various dates had merged with the RACS, from Faversham & Thanet in the East to Slough in the West. Today it additionally includes other societies that merged directly with the CWS SE, as it then was, namely South Suburban, Brighton, Invicta and Sittingbourne Co-operative Societies. Altogether, the Archive comprises an extremely important record of local, commercial and working class history.

At the end of 1999 when the office closed, Greenwich Council agreed to provide temporary accommodation for the material, in order to keep it in the Borough.

However, also at the end of 1999, a decision was taken to create a National Co-operative Archive at the Co-operative College. As a result a selection of approximately 3500 records and documents were dispatched to the College in February 2001.

While the development of a Co-operative Archive Centre at the national level is most welcome, the future of the local archive is still uncertain. The National Centre does not meet the need for archival resources relating to past co-operative societies in London and the South East and a good case can still be made for a regional co-operative archive and study centre.

For, while the Archive was in Co-operative premises, Ron Roffey, as Honorary Archivist, was able to show visitors the museum part of the collection, and also to welcome individuals who wished to carry out research. He was, in addition, able to obtain funds from South East Co-op to develop a number of databases. This enabled a catalogue of the collection to be completed, and also his own research into the Royal Arsenal and South Suburban Societies, which was published in the book ‘The Co-operative Way’ a year ago.

Since leaving Powis Street, these activities have ceased due to the material being held in storage conditions. Since then, we have had only a trickle of funds to enable caretaking functions to continue, to allow, for example, the reception of new items and the loan of parts of the collection for exhibition. Yet still today we receive requests from people wishing to carry out research (which we have to refuse) and records and objects continue to be donated.

At the time of writing, the Archive is again being moved, now to smaller and more basic premises in Eltham owned by Greenwich Council. We hope it will be adequate for the essential functions of maintaining the collection.

If the immediate goal of preserving the collection can be achieved, we shall then need to develop a strategy of long term development. Suitable accommodation will be needed, as also will funds for conservation, for database work, and to enable the public to have access. An encyclopedia of local co-operation on CD-ROM or the internet could be produced; and digital recording is increasingly significant as a means of giving access to old and delicate documents.

This article first appeared in the GIHS Newsletter for March 2001

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Reviews and snippets March 2001

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Reviews and snippets March 2001

BYGONE KENT

The February 2001 edition (Vol. 20 No.2.) contains a number of pieces of Greenwich interest. These include – an article by Diana Rimel on Thomas Tilling (1825-1893) Livery Stables and Depots in the South East (including details on the Blackheath and Shooters Hill depots), an article by Mary Mills on Jim Hughes and Orinoco – in which Mary writes up the late Jim Hughes' notes on Hughes Barge builders at Providence Wharf in Greenwich, an article by Richard Hugh-Perks on 'The barges of Frederick Hughes of East Greenwich (giving details of Orinoco and other barges), and Bernard Brown on 'Romeo, Law and Order in Old Greenwich 1699-1899 (are the police industrial history??).

THE ISLE OF DOGS 1066-1918

This publication on the history of one of Greenwich's nearest neighbours is produced by the Island History Trust. It is by Eve Hostettler from Dockland Settlement,

This is a fascinating account of life and work on the Isle of Dogs – mainly in the past 150 years. It is embellished with many many interesting photographs- something collected by the Island History Trrust over nearly twenty years. There was always a strong interchange between Greenwich and the Island with residents from both sides working on the other. Many Island families migrated to Greenwich as they prospered. It is highly recommended to anyone interested in our recent industrial past.

A RIVER THAMES GUIDE

This booklet is by Bob Jeffries, a member of the Metropolitan Police River Thames Division – and thus rests on his intimate knowledge of the riverside from Woolwich to Battersea. It is a commentary on what can be seen from the river – and an antidote to much of the nonsense which tourists are told every day! On your next river trip, you could do a lot worse than take a copy with you!

CROSSNESS ENGINES RECORD

The Winter 2001 copy of Crossness Engines Record brings some welcome news from the 'Octagon'– the area of the Crossness Pumping Station built by Bazelgette in the nineteenth century.

Much of the work on cleaning and polishing linkages and connecting rods on the 'Prince Consort' steam engine have been completed and the team are looking forward to setting up the parallel motion linkage. Concern is growing about these polished parts in the damp engine house and a small team will be set up to check their condition on a regular basis. For example, the governor put on display 3 or 4 years ago is now having to be stripped for re-polishing.

The Boiler Inspector has visited the site and given the ok for work to proceed in constructing a boiler room. The welders, Ernie Burrell and Albert Stedman, have built brick walls for the new boiler room.

Two of the original large steam pipes have been pressure tested and will act as reservoirs of steam when the engine is first started up. Four windows in the Octagon have been fitted with special shutters so there is now a lot more daylight!

The Record also contains some extracts from Hansard on the 'Great Stink ' of 1858, a miscellany of useful facts on sanitation, and on the Sewers of Paris.

INDUSTRIAL HEROISM

Postmans' Park in the City of London is the site of a national memorial to heroic men and women andwas conceived by Mr G F Watts in 1887. So in 1900 a dedicated wall displaying the names and the heroic deed was instigated, with each one displayed using decorated tiles by Doulton, Lambeth. One of

the names and their deed is recorded as follows:

P.C. Edward George Brown Greenoff Metropolitan Police many lives were saved by his devotion to duty at the terrible explosion at Silvertown. 19 Jan 1917.

The tiles are in good order and laurel leaves form a border around these words. Postman's Park is off St Martin's Le Grand, EC2. The memorial is obviously incomplete and the history of it must be recorded with the Guildhall library.

Kate Jones

ROYAL ORDNANCE ARTEFACTS IN STORE

I've been told that many artefacts are in store at the MOD Depot at Glascoed near Usk, kept with a view to setting up a museum there with items from other sites – like Woolwich Arsenal, and Waltham Abbey. I will let you know when I hear more.

John Bowles

MERRYWEATHERS

The 'Ashburnham Triangle' by Diana Rimel, contains some information about Merryweather's.

Richard Cheffins.

CALL FOR PAPERS

The29^th Annual meeting of the History of Technology Group. .This will be held at the Chatham Campus of the University of Greenwich for the weekend 29^th June – 1^stJuly 2001. Offers of papers should be sent before the end of April 2001 to Dr.Colin A.Hempstead, 2 Uplands Road, Darlington, Co.Durham DL3 7SZ. Contributions should be 'welcomed in view of the historical significance of the Thames Estuary and its immediate environs in the development of electrical engineering, papers relating to the various industries and establishments that grew up along the banks of the river from submarine telegraph cables of the 1850s to semiconductors and computers'.

WORKSHOPS FOR THE BLINd

I noticed a request for information in your last issue about the Greenwich Workshops for the Blind. My father was a worker at the Workshop for the Blind and spent most of his working life there until he retired.

There was a Workshop for the Blind with a shopfront in Greenwich High Road situated in the middle of the block, which now has the Ibis Hotel at one end and a residential home at the other end. The premises in Greenwich High Road were large with a glass fronted shop window, which displayed for sale the goods made by the blind people. A variety of basketware was made for business (laundry baskets etc,) and for the public (shopping/picnic/gardening baskets etc) all of which were beautifully displayed in the window. When this shop closed for redevelopment of the block my Father was transferred to Eastney Street. At Eastney Street were made fendoffs (rope buffers) for ships and also mattresses. The foreman was named Jim and when Greenwich High Road was closed he opened up a small shop in Trafalgar Road selling the basketware. Jim had all his faculties and was an accomplished singer. He had a good relationship with the men.

On one occasion that I remember visiting by father in Eastney

GREENWICH MADE THEODOLITE

Recently I cleaned up a small theodolite which I inherited. Theinstrument, pocket sized really, was made at Troughton and Sims in Charlton, although it says 'London' on the case. It must have been made at the beginning of the century and I was told it was an 'apprentice's piece'. Made of wood and brass it is fully comprehensive with a compass, spirit levels, protractor and many different measuring tables. I do not want to dispose of it but I am wondering if this small neat instrument could have been used by Surveyors?

Barbara Ludlow

BLACKWALL TUNNEL

With reference to the letter from Linda Dobinson in Vol. III Issue 4 – this information should be of help. The Tunnel was built between 1892 and 1897 – width 24½ ft.

Now, a few reminiscences from my commuting days between 1937 and 1939 on the 108 bus from the Standard to Bromley by Bow. In those days, there were narrow footways each way with granite kerbs so the carriageway was a lot narrower. The tunnel was open to foot passengers but the practice was for horse drawn and motor traffic to hug the kerbs which became highly polished. The iron tyred cartwheels made high pitched squeaky noises, which went eerily along the tunnel. There was no overtaking and the speed was that of the slowest – if you got behind a cart well that was 'life', to use the current vernacular! As regards cleanliness - it was always well kept and the only smell was motor exhaust. The air was always foul and a hazy, dirty, greyish, blue. I'm sure Julian Watson at Woodlands could give a full history of the building of the tunnel.

Ted Barr

Pat O'Driscoll's Account of a' recent visit'

I too have recently walked the path from 'The Trafalgar' to the Blackwall Tunnel entrance. Oh! What a change from the 1920s! In those days, it was full of interest, almost continuously by the water's edge and one could see what was going on in many of the factories.

Now - 2000, and all that! Just an elongated brick paved pedestrian precinct, guard rails and high walls and fences full of threatening notices, guard dogs CTVs and the rest of it.… As I approached each corner, I almost expected to see watch towers, searchlights and machine guns pointing menacingly down! The name, too, - why change it? It was always the 'Riverbank', which is what it's basically for and marked as such on the Ordnance Maps for 100 years.

I have many more memories of a personal nature, which have no place here, but I'm always pleased to talk about the path to anyone patient or mad enough to listen! .

And also … 'The Greenwich so-called Peninsula'. Does anyone know the identity of who dreamed this name up! A peninsula is just not what it is. My Oxford dictionary defines a peninsula as a 'piece of land almost surrounded by water or projecting far into the sea'. The maps label the area as 'Greenwich Marshes' and it formed part of the Borough's political administration as 'Marsh Ward'.

Ted Barr

Stone's of Deptford

This is a response to a letter from Louise Carpenter. The full name of the company was J.Stone & Co. Ltd., Arkwright Street, Deptford, SE8. They were founders and manufacturers of train lighting systems used on railways in many parts of the world. The use of the apparent plural was simply local slang, or perhaps, jargons. Most of the big names in industry were on the lower levels of the Borough and folk higher up in Charlton and Blackheath mostly went down hill to work ... 'down at Stones' ... or 'down Johnson's'– meaning Johnson and Phillips Ltd. ... or 'down Harvey's'– meaning G.A. Harvey Ltd. In my day at United Glass on the riverbank, it was 'down the glass blowers'. The only local exception was Molins of Evelyn Street Deptford - the name being Molins Manufacturing Co, Ltd, Makers of tobacco machinery. Some of these organisations were known again locally as the Greenwich sweatshops because of low pay, non union recognition and appalling working conditions which by today's standards would be as alien as funny little men from Mars!

Ted Barr

INVICTA SCHOOL

This is a response to comments in a letter from Norman Bishop. I too was at Invicta School 1919-1924. In the Second World War, it was an AFS Station. The mine fell on the gas-meter sheds alongside their quarters in the main building. There were many fatalities, including two of my friends – Walter Smith who lived opposite the school and Charlie Barrow, from Hassendean Road.

Ted Barr

MERRYWEATHER'S

FIRE ENGINES

The National Railway Museum at York have a number of fire engines. Have they anything from Greenwich?

Ted Barr

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Deptford industry

November 5, 2019, 9:25 pm

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INDUSTRY IN DEPTFORD

Further extracts from Christopher Phillpott's study

Areas of settlement continued to expand in Deptford in the early modern period. The Broadway was still a focus of settlement in 1608 and the succeeding decades as it had been in the late medieval period. Here the Old Draw Well stood in the centre of the road, later capped and replaced by the parish pump.

A row of brick and tile cottages survives at 19-31 Tanners Hill, stone terraced houses of a similar date at 17-21 Deptford Broadway and a late seventeenth century brick house at 47 Deptford Broadway. Excavations at the Dover Castle (the site of the Christopher Inn) found post-medieval pits, gullies, drains, and a metalled area, and at the Odeon cinema site seventeenth century pits and a series of nineteenth century, brick lines tanks in garden behind the houses of the street frontage. The Dover Castle and Odeon Cinema sites were intensively occupied in the post-mediaeval period.

In the early eighteenth century ribbon development along the Thames waterside linked Deptford to Rotherhithe and London. Daniel Defoe commented in 1724 'the docks and building yards on the riverside between the town of Deptford and the street of Redriff or Rotherhithe are effectually joined and building daily increased.'

In 1701, the need for a water supply was answered by the granting of a patent to pipe water from the Ravensbourne. The patent permitted the breaking up the roadways throughout the royal manors of Sayes Court and East Greenwich to lay supply pipes. This was the origin of the Kent Waterworks site to the east of Brookmill Road which absorbed the site of the Steam bakery there in 1855, and the watermill in 1884. A wooden sill from a water wheel race and nineteenth century wooden pipes have been found at the site.

A ferry operated across the mouth of the Creek from Hoy Inn Stairs then called the Peter Boat Alehouse in the eighteenth century. Another ferry ran from the end of Horseferry Place to the Isle of Dogs until 1883.

The road from Southwark to the lime kilns at Blackheath was controlled from 1718 by the New cross Turnpike Trust which had a tollgate at the west end of Deptford Bridge. Deptford was linked to London in 1748 by the roads of the Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford Turnpike Trust. The roads under its control include Butt Lane (Deptford High Street), where was a tollgate at the north end. The method of repairing the roads was to lay large quantities of loamy gravel on them, resulting in hard baked deep ruts. The Trust also cleaned and arched over many of the commons areas of the area.

Sixteenth century gravel pits are known to have been on the east bank of the Ravensbourne in 1535 which had gone out of use by 1588 and on the west bank at Gravell Pitt Meade in 1577 and later. This is almost certainly the late area of gravel extraction which appeared on Rococo's map of 1741-6. In 1671 the roadway was drained into the gravel pits by means of paved gutters. Other post mediaeval gravel pits have been found elsewhere.

To the north of the Gravel Pits estate lay the Copperas lands where early dye and chemical manufacture was established by Sir Nicholas Crispe in the mid seventeenth century. Crispe also experimented with growing madder (for red dye) in Deptford in 1680. The works processed copperas stones of iron pyrites collected from the Kent and Essex beaches in copperas beds, trenches measuring 100 feet by 15 feet and twelve feet deep filled with rain water, to produce red and black dyes, A map of 1674 shows the coppris beds on the north side of Cooperas Lane, a littl to the asdt of th Trinity Almshouses. In the south east corner of their enclosure lay the coppris Houses and further east a dock opening onto the Creek with a crane. The property also included gardens and an orchard. It continued in the Crispe family until the mid eighteenth century. The works continued until the 1830s when the site was taken over by other uses.

A number if small pottery manufacturers were established in Deptford by the eighteenth century and possibly in the late seventeenth. These local potteries producing domestic wares were forced into specialisation by the success of the Staffordshire potters in the eighteenth century. They then made industrial pottery - sugar moulds, flowerpots, chimney pots and crucibles including the Deptford ware for which the town became noted.

Several of these potters were in this area. One was situated at the north east corner of the power station site with access by a lane running north from the Stowage. In 1737 it was occupied by John Westcott and in 1751 by George Westcott. However, also in 1751 and later it was operated by Abraham Dalton who was still working as a potter in 1792. Some of his products were found in the backfill of a dock in the northern part of the area, they were mostly industrial wares of c.1650-1750 including sugar moulds and kiln props.

Another pottery began in the north side of Copperas Lane behind the tenements of Church Street to the south of the Trinity Almshouse. In 1720 it was operated by John Timms, and was run by the Parry family from at least 1730 to 1891. By which it time it was called the upper Pottery and had developed into four kilns. Latterly it was operated by Gibbs and Canning until it closed in 1961. Its north wall survives, consisting largely of nineteenth century flowerpot fragments, stoneware and crucibles embedded in mortar. There are also paved surfaces and brick machine bases. An excavation here uncovered late seventeenth or early eighteenth century brick walls and mortar surfaces, late eighteenth century brick walls and a nineteenth century kiln area.

This article appeared in the March 2001 GIHS Newsletter

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Dockyard difference of opinion

November 5, 2019, 9:31 pm

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A Dockyard Difference of Opinion

Allan Burnett's two part tale of Deptford Dockyard perpetuates the claim that Deptford was, as he puts it, the 'Cradle of the British Navy' (GIHS Vol.4. No.1. p.9).

Portsmouth people could nurse a similar belief since the Mary Rose was built 'somewhere near' Portsmouth in 1509.

Referring to Nathan Dews History of Deptford (page 250) it says 'Deptford was fixed upon by King Henry VIII as a site for a Royal Dockyard'.

Turning to Vincent's Records of the Woolwich District (Vol. 1. P.128) Camden's Brittanica (1695) gives Woolwich seniority as the Mother Dock of England. Vincent follows with two pages of detailed items relating to the materials used in constructing The Henry (or Harry) Grace-a-Dieu at Woolwich from 1512.

Henry had inherited four major ships from his father which were not warships but armed merchantmen and the sinking of one of them by the French promoted the laying down at Woolwich of the 'Great Harry'. It is possible that a yard of some capacity existed at Woolwich in Henry VII's time, for the remains of a 'great ship' were unearthed in 1912 when Woolwich power station was built. This ship was supposed to be one of those inherited by Henry VIII in 1509.

It appears then that then claim 'Cradle of the British Navy' belongs to Woolwich by a short head.

The comparison of armaments carried in the Great Harry and in Mary Rose suggests that the latter, built first, was a sort of pilot experiment by Henry VIII whose two passions were big ships and big guns.

The figures are

Mary Rose Great Harry

Displacement 600 tons 1,000 tons

Guns

Heavy Bronze 7 19

Heavy Iron 34 102

Soldiers 251 102

Gunners 20 50

Mariners 120 301

On the basis of the foregoing, I think the Great Harry was the true 'First Baby' of the Royal Navy and its cradle was the Royal Dockyard, Woolwich.

Jack Vaughan

This article appeared in the March 2001 GIHS Newsletter

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Engineering firms

November 5, 2019, 9:36 pm

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SMALLER ENGINEERING FIRMS OF THE BOROUGH

By Ted Barr

This list is offered with the idea that others may have further knowledge or can help in other ways. It is by no means exhaustive and was compiled from a variety of sources. Please add and amend it as you think fit.

General Engineers and Machine Shops

Thompson and Co. At Endyne Works, Blisset Street. These people made small lighting for isolated country houses 100 years ago. I acquired the electric motor and some pulleys that drove their machine tools through line shafting (I'm sure Chairman Jack can explain that in detail). This motor and catalogue are in the Borough Museum at Plumstead. The motor has a twin brother, which is in the Chalk Pits Museum, Amberley, Sussex.

Fry's (London) Ltd. Catherine Grove. Tool Makers and consumables – eg they made hacksaw blades, drills etc., I have a copy of their catalogue from about 1930.

Custance and Thompson. MeadowCourt Road, Lee. They were long established and all through World War II, they were on repetition machine parts.

Elliott Machine Co. On Blackheath Hill in the old railway station. Similar to Custance and Thompson.

DeVille Brothers. Sited on the corner of Royal Hill and Gloucester Circus. Run by retired Royal Navy 'Tiffies'. They had a well-equipped workshop, and traded as general and motor engineers. During World War II they made parts for PLUTO valves and control gears.

Haybeerd – they were somewhere near South Street and made transformers, chargers and other electrical gear.

Phillips Motor Engineers. Shooters Hill Road – there is still a petrol station on site.

????? General Engineers of 156 Eastcombe Mews, Taking these together with Phillips (above) both had machinery driven by line shafting during World War 1. They must have been on war work as there were virtually no motors locally.

W.C.Keach. Motor Engineer, in Sun Lane Garage. They were sub contractors for a works at Crayford.

E.Dello. General engineer in Sun Lane Garage. Had traded from other addresses and did general repetition work – in the war it was of a munitions nature.

E.Kingsnorth and Sons. Motor Engineers, Blackheath Hill. They did tool making and precision works for Elliots (above).

Dangerfield. Trafalgar Road, plant engineers.

Henry Sykes. Pump manufacturers.

Colloid Mills. Woolwich Road, near the tram graveyard. Machine tools could be seen at work there.

Arthur Martin. Tool Maker of Plaxtol Place.

This article appeared in thr March 2001 GIHS Newslettrer

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Billingsgate Dock

November 5, 2019, 9:41 pm

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BILLINGSGATE DOCK

A number of articles published in previous issues of this newsletter have drawn attention to Billingsgate Dock in Greenwich. There is a lot more to this story than appears at first site – Billingsgate still has a role to play today.

Thanks to Nick Raynsford MP I have been able to discover a great deal about its present status – although to most passers by it appears to be just another bit of the frontage on Cutty Sark Gardens, it is in fact still a dock with rights and privileges attached to it.

In 1850 an Act of Parliament was passed to 'enable the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital .. 'to enlarge and improve the Billingsgate Dock and widen Billingsgate Street in Greenwich'.

This was a strange and obscure Act of Parliament. It is described as a 'Public Act of Local Application'– and as such does not appear in the normal reference lists like 'Chronological Table of Local Legislation', 'Halsbury's Statutes' or the 'Index to the London Government Act 1963 and orders made thereunder'. At the same time there is no sign that it has ever been repealed. It is understood that Acts of this type remain in force unless evidence can be brought forward to show that it has been repealed.

What does the Act say? First of all it makes clear that Billingsgate Dock is to be used by the public in the place of Ship Dock and Ship Stairs (near what was the Ship Pub sited where the Cutty Sark Ship now stands) . It was for the 'Use of Watermen and other Persons resorting to and using the same' .. and as a 'great Accommodation and Improvement to the Town of Greenwich .. and Persons using the said Dock' Billingsgate Street was to be widened and improved. Billingsgate Street ran roughly down the eastern side of what is now Cutty Sark Gardens. This all means that Billingsgate Dock is a public dock for the use of Greenwich people and others.

If the dock went into the ownership of the Greenwich Pier Company in due course then under the Thames River Steam Boat Service Act of 1904 the London County Council took responsibility for it. However the owners should have given notice in writing to the LCC before 1907. Did they ever do this? Was there ever an agreement with the LCC to transfer it to them?

What does all this mean? What we probably need is a clever lawyer to sort it all out. But it may mean that Greenwich people and 'watermen' have some rights that they never knew about.

Please can we have some comments – or some more information?

Reg Barter

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Lovell's Wharf cranes

November 5, 2019, 9:53 pm

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LOVELL'S WHARF CRANES

In January the Society was contacted by residents and members from the Ballast Quay area who said the cranes on Lovell's Wharf were being demolished. Enquiries to the Council's Planning Office was met with surprise – but they later confirmed what was happening and that the owners had not informed the Council of their intentions despite the planned use of the cranes as a feature in the outstanding planning application for the site. Jack Vaughan wrote the following letter on behalf of the Society:

I am writing about the cranes on Lovells Wharf demolished with no notice to Greenwich Council or the local community.

Lovell's was a working wharf into the mid-1980s when Shaw Lovell left it – having recently renovated the two 'Scotch derricks'. These two cranes have became a local landmark – and were probably the two last such cranes left on this part of the Thames. Three articles about the history of the wharf by Mary Mills appeared last year in Bygone Kent. The wharf has not been used since the mid-1980s and locally it has been widely accepted that if there was no way it could be kept in industrial use then it was important that a way was found to keep the cranes as a feature –it is felt important to preserve as much of the character of the riverside as possible.

The site is owned by Morden College, who have rented it out on a short term basis to various film companies – which has meant that it has become less secure than it ought to be.

The cranes were demolished by Morden College on grounds of lack of site security – and demolition must have cost a lot more than enhanced security fencing!

A number of organisations and individuals have written to Morden College to protest – and it is quite clear that a great many local residents are also angry at what they saw as their 'heritage' being disposed of. Several local people contacted the newspapers and News Shopper published an article which quotes a Morden College spokesman saying that there were safety fears. The Greenwich Society is also quoted 'We are angry this happened without notification. Their demolition ruins the heritage and landscape of the area'. It also said that English Heritage confirmed that Morden College were not breaking the law by demolishing the cranes and Greenwich Council had 'expressed disappointment to Morden College about the demolition and that they did not come to us to address their safety concerns'.

This article appeared in the March 2001 GIHS Newsletter

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